$20M in 20 Years: How a Home Care Sales Team Manages Over 100 Active Referral Partners

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HomeWell Care Services of New Jersey

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Home Care Sales FAQ

What is the most effective way to build relationships with referral sources in the home care industry?

Building strong relationships with referral sources is crucial for a home care business. Start by identifying and qualifying potential sources based on factors like facility type, quality ratings, and patient demographics. Once identified, consistent and quality communication is key. This includes:

• Regular in-person visits: Aim for at least weekly visits, especially for high-potential referrers.
• Multi-channel communication: Utilize a mix of emails, phone calls, and texts to stay top of mind.
• Personalized updates: Share positive client updates and outcomes to demonstrate the value of the partnership.
• Thoughtful gestures: Sponsor events, provide quality swag, or offer lunch to show appreciation.
• Transparency and accountability: Address any concerns promptly and professionally.

Remember, building trust takes time, so be patient, persistent, and genuinely invested in the relationship.

How can you ensure referral partners are sending qualified leads?

Start by clearly outlining your qualification criteria to the referral partner. Keep it concise and easy to understand. Highlight key factors like:

• Functional limitations of the patient
• Discharge planning needs for rehab patients
• Specific conditions like fall risk, Alzheimer's, or dementia
• Most importantly, ability to pay privately for home care services

Continuously track lead quality, noting the reason for disqualification. If a partner repeatedly sends unqualified leads, use data to reiterate your criteria and provide specific examples. Regularly reinforce your ideal client profile to help partners make appropriate referrals.

What are the essential qualities to look for when hiring a home care marketer?

When hiring a home care marketer, prioritize these qualities:

• Strong work ethic and drive: Look for individuals who are self-motivated, persistent, and results-oriented.
• Excellent communication and interpersonal skills: They should be able to build rapport and effectively convey your company's value.
• Sales acumen and closing ability: Experience in sales, while not mandatory, can be beneficial for generating leads and securing referrals.
• Compassion and empathy: Understanding the home care industry and demonstrating genuine care for seniors is crucial.

While prior relationships can be helpful, don’t discount candidates who lack them. Focus on their core skills, personality, and potential to learn and grow within your organization.

How can home care businesses differentiate themselves in a competitive market?

Differentiation is key in a crowded market. Home care businesses can stand out by:

• Developing specialized care programs: Offer unique programs that address specific needs, such as transitional care, fall prevention, or dementia care.
• Showcasing positive outcomes data: Track and share data on readmission rates, client satisfaction, or other key metrics that demonstrate the effectiveness of your services.
• Providing exceptional customer service: Go above and beyond to meet client needs, build strong relationships, and exceed expectations.
• Building a strong brand reputation: Cultivate a positive image through community involvement, online reviews, and word-of-mouth referrals.

By focusing on quality, specialization, and client-centric care, you can set yourself apart from the competition.

What is the most effective compensation structure for home care sales teams?

There is no one-size-fits-all approach to sales team compensation. The best structure depends on individual roles, motivations, and company goals. However, consider these factors:

• Performance-based incentives: Incorporate bonuses or commissions tied to specific metrics, such as referrals generated, leads converted, or revenue targets met.
• Base salary: Provide a competitive base salary to attract and retain talent, ensuring financial stability.
• Benefits and perks: Offer comprehensive benefits packages, paid time off, and other perks to enhance job satisfaction.
• Transparency and communication: Clearly communicate the compensation plan, expectations, and opportunities for growth and earning potential.

Regularly review and adjust the compensation plan to align with market trends, employee performance, and company objectives.

How can home care sales teams effectively manage their time and resources?

Effective time and resource management are crucial for sales success. Implement these strategies:

• Prioritize high-value activities: Focus on tasks that directly contribute to generating leads, nurturing relationships, and closing deals.
• Utilize technology: Leverage CRM systems, scheduling tools, and other technology solutions to streamline processes and improve efficiency.
• Delegate tasks: Delegate administrative or less critical tasks to support staff to free up time for higher-level activities.
• Set realistic goals and deadlines: Establish attainable goals and timelines to prevent overwhelm and track progress effectively.
• Continuously evaluate and refine: Regularly assess your processes, tools, and strategies to identify areas for improvement and optimize performance.

By working smarter, not harder, sales teams can maximize their impact and achieve sustainable growth.

How should a home care sales team handle conflicts or challenges with referral partners?

Conflicts with referral partners are inevitable. Address them proactively and professionally with these steps:

• Active listening and empathy: Seek to understand the partner's perspective and acknowledge their concerns.
• Open and honest communication: Address the issue directly, clearly explaining your side of the story.
• Solution-oriented approach: Focus on finding mutually beneficial solutions that address the root cause of the conflict.
• Documentation: Keep detailed records of all communication and actions taken to resolve the issue.
• Escalation when necessary: If the conflict cannot be resolved at a lower level, involve senior management or designated personnel.

Remember, maintaining a positive and productive relationship is paramount. Aim for a resolution that preserves trust and strengthens the partnership.

What role does data analysis play in successful home care sales management?

Data analysis is crucial for making informed decisions and optimizing sales performance. Track these key performance indicators (KPIs):

• Referral sources: Monitor the volume and quality of leads generated by each source to identify high-performing partners.
• Lead conversion rates: Track the percentage of leads that convert to clients to assess the effectiveness of your sales process.
• Client acquisition costs: Calculate the cost of acquiring new clients to optimize marketing and sales expenditures.
• Client lifetime value: Determine the long-term revenue generated by each client to make strategic decisions about client retention.

Use this data to:

• Identify trends and patterns: Understand what's working, what's not, and why.
• Measure the effectiveness of your strategies: Determine the ROI of marketing campaigns, sales initiatives, and referral partnerships.
• Make data-driven decisions: Adjust your approach based on insights gleaned from the data to continuously improve performance.

By embracing a data-driven culture, home care sales teams can gain a competitive edge and achieve sustainable growth.

[ 00:00:58 ] Welcome everyone to Home Care U a podcast by Careswitch. I hope everyone is having a great week. It's great to be back with you. Thanks for tuning into the show here at the top, I just want to ask if you are enjoying this podcast. Please leave us a review wherever you're listening, I know we've got people on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and YouTube etc. I really appreciate all the support and the love and the listenership of this show and the only thing I really ask in return is that you leave us a review or share this episode with a friend or a colleague on social media or via email. It's great to spread this education as far and wide.

[ 00:01:39 ] as possible. So; one other thing if you are enjoying the show I also want to remind you that we've got a newsletter called Campus Times where we actually put out more resources and more links and more information similar to this podcast, and we'll see you in the next episode of the show in a monthly newsletter so you can go to careswitch.com/subscribe to get that monthly newsletter to your inbox. Campus Times, keep an eye out for it'll come out again this week. I'm really excited for today's session, I've got a new guest here with us today, John Neagle the Director of Sales at HomeWell Care Services in New Jersey.

[ 00:02:15 ] Last week I had the owner Lou Romano on with me to talk about scaling this franchise from zero to $20 million over the last 20 years, and I figured it was fitting to have their Director of Sales join me as well to talk about their large sophisticated sales heavy organization and strategy and processes so I'm excited to have you on today John, thanks for being here; thank you so much for having me, Miriam. I'm very excited as well. I know this might be getting you out of your comfort zone a little bit, but that is okay; I'm glad that you're up for the challenge today. Before we talk about sales, you know, your referral partners, qualification, all of that good stuff, I want to give you just a couple of minutes to introduce yourself, talk to us about your background, who you are, what you like to do outside of work, and then maybe your journey to home care.

[ 00:03:04 ] Well, sure! So, my background is actually not in health care, but it is in sales and business and service as well. So, growing up I was always an entrepreneur, I was always selling something, I was always exposed to business. I have a degree in marketing and after college I decided to take a little bit of a life detour um I joined the Marine Corps, I was a logistics officer, so I learned to manage large teams to include Training and readiness, I learned to operate under time and budget and resource constraints, and to always get to mission accomplishment. So today, I've been with Home Well now for six years, and I started as a REP out in the field calling on referral sources and speaking with families.

[ 00:03:49 ] And today, like you said, I manage our sales department here. Amazing! I forgot about your Marine Corps background; I think that's really relevant, like you said, managing large groups of people, a lot of logistics, a lot of coordination. So, it's only fitting that you found your way to sales and are doing a very similar but different thing. Today, um, before we get into kind of the meat of the conversation, I want you to give a lay of the land of the sales infrastructure at home. Well, um, can you talk about how many offices you'll have, how many reps you're going to be paying for or how many people you're managing and what kind of like the internal team and breakdown looks like? Yeah, absolutely.

[ 00:04:29 ] So we have three office locations and each of those locations has a field rep or a marketer that's calling on referral sources in that territory. Those reps and those referral sources that they're calling on and all the clients that come from them are supported by an inside sales team here at the office that I work out of in Hackensack, New Jersey. So, we've got the three marketers and then we have four reps that are responsible for really everything that takes place from initial inquiry call through closing of the sale. So, we've got folks that answer the phone and we've got ones that actually go out and meet with the families and close the sale. Awesome. We'll talk a little bit more about kind of the roles of each of those later on here.

[ 00:05:15 ] To kind of paint the full picture, will you tell me about how many referral partners you have? You all are working with across the state of New Jersey, about how many partners, maybe total partners, about how many you've come in contact with or have, you know, on your radar and then maybe about how many active partners you all are working with? Sure. So, we've got about 700 or so referral sources in the library, if you will. We are actively calling on about 110 of them. And this year so far, we have about 170 that are actively referring to HomeWell. Awesome. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I think when people maybe hear that six or seven hundred number, that seems wild, but in a state as active and as dense as New Jersey, I think having, you know, hundreds upwards of a thousand partners isn't unrealistic, but then you mentioned, you know, maybe about a hundred, 150 that you're working with actively.

[ 00:06:14 ] About how many referrals are you getting from these partners monthly? Just kind of ballpark about how many referrals are we talking? Yeah. We average about 144 total referrals a month. It's about 36 or so a week. Okay. Great. And qualified versus unqualified? Is that 144 or 30 a month? Are those typically qualified or it's kind of a mixed bag in that? So, we average about, on average, about 25% of the leads that come through are unqualified. So, in a given month, we can usually disqualify about 25%. Okay. And that number has been very consistent since we started tracking it about three years ago. You know, DBA is a couple of percentage points, but 25 is a safe bet. Okay. Awesome. Let's take a kind of a walk down memory lane of your history at HomeWell.

[ 00:07:07 ] You mentioned how large this referral network is. When you joined the team, you know, six years ago, was all of this infrastructure in place or have you helped kind of build it up and get these numbers to where they are today? Yeah. I mean, I think that's a great question. I think that's a great question. I think that's a great question. I think that's a great question. Or was it pretty similar size years ago? So, you know, the initial build out of the referral source list really predates my time here. HomeWell’s been open now for 20 years, but it's definitely evolved over the past few years. Under our old system, we never could have gotten it to this level because when I joined, the marketer was also the one who handled the inquiry call and the nurturing and the closing.

[ 00:07:48 ] So there just wasn't enough time in the week to get to this many places. So, we've, you know, we've evolved our system to enable us to reach more referral sources. Can we talk about those different roles? I want to kind of start into that already. You mentioned the people that are out in the field and then the people that are back in the office. Can you elaborate a little bit more on the roles of each of those and kind of where the line is, like where the handoff is between those? So, our marketers are responsible for generating new opportunities, you know, fun, you know, new opportunities, you know, fun, you know, finding and qualifying new referral sources. They're responsible for nurturing their sources, you know, getting to them at the designated frequency that's required.

[ 00:08:33 ] Their goal is to generate leads, generate referrals. The handoff really happens at the inquiry call. We actually try to have our marketers coach the referral sources to give our direct office number. So that way, when that prospective client calls into the office, they can speak with somebody immediately. Yeah. And, you know, under the old system, they'd call the field rep and, you know, that rep would probably be in another meeting or, you know, doing a presentation and they wouldn't get that immediate service. We wanted our prospective clients to be able to speak with somebody immediately. So that is where the handoff happens. And then it turns over to an intake specialist, which is somebody that's just going to have an initial phone call with the client – qualify them, you know, are they the right fit for us, are we the right fit for them, them?

[ 00:09:21 ] Can we meet their needs? And if so, we want to move that referral to the next step, which would either be an in-person consultation with one of our, you could call it a closer or, you know, a registered nurse and a sales rep to actually go out and meet with that family. Or if there's, you know, an imminent need, that inside sales rep could actually close the sale over the phone. Yeah, that's perfect. I wanted to talk about where then the next handoff, which is the inside sales rep to say the nurse or whoever does the assessment. Can you explain that a little bit more? You said maybe there's the opportunity to close over the phone, but sometimes it goes to the home where the nurse is present there as well.

[ 00:10:02 ] Correct. So, we would have a, we have a couple of different capabilities. We do have a registered nurse within our sales department that just gave us a little bit more flexibility. You know, we didn't have to wait for one of our RNs to be available to go meet with the family. We didn't have to wait for one of our RNs to be available to go meet with the family. Uh, so by having that nurse inside the department, she's able to just to go out and talk more in depth about services, develop a care plan, give exact pricing based on the clinical needs. She's not available. We have another sales rep that would actually go out in conjunction with a registered nurse to do the, to do the same thing.

[ 00:10:35 ] Um, you know, we believe in, in, uh, meeting with our families. It's a very personal business that we do here, and it allows us to, um, you know, understand their expectations. Uh, from us as an agency and, um, you know, get, it also gives us an opportunity to determine exact pricing. We don't just have a blanket price that covers every client. We truly base our pricing and our care plans on that, you know, client-specific needs. Yeah. Lou talked a lot about the personal touch, you know, like the intimacy with the family and how important that is, especially even in the sales process, you know, developing a really strong, deep relationship with them over the phone. You can do some of that. But in the home is where that really comes to fruition and getting that relationship going.

[ 00:11:20 ] Um, I want to ask about when another kind of like defining line, which is like closed one, like when, when do you all consider the business close? Is that at the time that an agreement is signed? Is that at a verbal agreement over the phone? Is that when the first shift is worked? What, what is the actual like definitive line of when the deal is closed technically? For us, closed means a, a first care log date, you know, a caregiver showed up at the home and actually worked a shift. There's a billable shift in the system. Uh, we don't go by the service agreement just because a lot of things can happen between, uh, the time that an agreement is signed and on a scheduled start date, uh, can happen. Great.

[ 00:12:01 ] Yeah. I just wanted to clarify that because I think every business approach is that a little bit different, but I, um, have heard you all speak about this, which is that that first shift first care log completed is really when the deal is closed because there's so many steps that you have to take to make sure that the deal is closed. There's so many steps leading up to that, but that is like the definitive line, like care has started. The first shift has been completed. So, I think that's great. Um, let's, let's go back. I'm already leading you astray here. I know you asked how, how off the cuff I'm going to go. And here we already are. Um, so bear with me.

[ 00:12:31 ] Um, I want to talk about back to the referral partners, you know, this massive list of a hundred plus active partners that you all are working with. That is a ton of work, a lot of people to manage, a lot of relationships, et cetera. And so, I want to get back to that of finding these partners and finding the right fit partners. Um, what, what does that look like? How have, how have you all, you know, whittled down the list of 700 to a hundred? What, what makes this top one hundred the right people for your business? Yeah. So, I could actually use a pretty cool. We have a real-life example here. We opened up a new territory, uh, about, a year and a half ago now down in Ocean County, New Jersey.

[ 00:13:18 ] It was a totally foreign land for all of us. We didn't know any of the communities there, any of the facilities. So, we truly did start from scratch when building out this list of potential referral sources. So, I can take you through the steps that we, uh, that we took for, uh, you know, developing that and qualifying that. Um, you know, the first thing is when you're, when you're building out that territory, we want to determine the breakdown of referral source. So, uh, we like to be heavy on the sniffs, uh, because those facilities have an imminent need. You know, those people are going home this week, and they have a high level of, you know, they're high-acuity patients. They need our services. Um, we're also, we also love assisted livings.

[ 00:13:58 ] You know, the, the folks that live in those communities have the resources for services and they have a need as well. And then, of course, you sprinkle in, you know, a few preferred partners in the hospital, geriatric care manager, uh, home health hospice, and, uh, your elder law attorneys, uh, into the network. And then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and so those are the three priorities we're looking to see that people and their concerns and needs are resolved throughout health care. Okay. Let's see if any other questions we can answer in the chat. Don't hesitate to ask a question right away. Thank you. Um, it looks like people are ready to share their questions. Okay. Sounds good. All right. Medicare.gov to help keep trimming this list.

[ 00:14:48 ] Medicare.gov, you can search by facility, you can search, you can find the number of beds that they have, you can search for their quality rating. You know, we're looking for high-quality facilities. All right. And now, now we get to the point where we need to be boots on the ground to qualify these facilities. So, you know, consulting our local rep who had some knowledge of the territory, you know, what pre-existing relationships does she have? What, what does she know about some of these facilities or communities? And then from there, it's getting into the buildings and you're starting to ask questions. You know, what's your census? What's your breakdown of Medicaid beds versus short-term rehab beds? You know, on Medicare.gov, you can find the readmission rate and then you can work backwards to determine, you know, how many high-risk patients are kind of in and out of this facility in a given week or a given month.

[ 00:15:41 ] All right. So, and then, and then it's just, you know, you've got to take a chance. You've got to do trial and error, and you chip away at it. And, you know, we're still doing that a year and a half later. We're still refining our list. We reevaluate just about every quarter. You know, we continue to trim it down until we have our core list, which now for each territory is about 35 referral sources. It's a competitive market that you're in. You're talking about kind of building out this new hub. It's competitive. It's competitive though. And so, these referral sources have a lot of reps walking in, asking for business. What have been some of the tactics to differentiate yourselves from a lot of the other people that are asking for their business?

[ 00:16:24 ] Absolutely. It's really all about signature programs. So, for us, our bread and butter is transitional care. It's our go-home well transitional care program designed to reduce readmissions. That is really what sets us apart and what makes these skilled nursing facilities in particular want to refer to our services because it's going to result in the best outcomes for them from a business standpoint, as well as for their patients. Are the numbers, like, are the stats, you know, you have the go home well program and I'm sure you all have like your own readmission tracking and rates and numbers. Do the numbers convince them or how much of it too is just this like personal connection that maybe you have?

[ 00:17:11 ] With the person on the other side, you know, you people say, you know, you want to do business, you do business with people that you like and people that you trust. I'm just curious in your perspective. Do the numbers do the talking and they believe and trust that or how much of it too is just building kind of a personal relationship with this person? It's definitely twofold. You know, some care about numbers more than others. Even some key roles within each facility care about numbers more than others. You know, an administrator really cares about a readmission rate, maybe a little bit more so than a director of nursing or a social worker. You know, some people want different things and part of our qualification process is really getting to know that account is figuring out what each person wants from us and, you know, what type of value we add for them.

[ 00:18:01 ] So it's definitely a mix, you know, we go in, you know, we're all about customer service. I'm sure, you know, I know Lou spoke about that last week. So, it is definitely a good mix of. Solid customer service solid relationship building, but also outcomes. And we really believe, you know, numbers do the talking. So, when we can actually go in and show how many readmissions we've had, which so far this year is zero, by the way, I'll throw that in there. You know, how many, how many falls do we average? You know, we don't just go in and talk about, 'hey, you know, we're, we're experts in fall prevention', we actually show that, you know, with it, you know, across for every 10,700 hours of care that we provide.

[ 00:18:41 ] There may be one fall. So, we have the numbers to back up what we're going in and saying, and between that and the customer service, usually enough to get an account on board. Yeah, I think, I think that's great. And like, I'm glad you referenced two different roles within their business care about different things. And so, you have to know exactly who it is that you're speaking to, and what motivates or drives them or resonates with them. You, you mentioned driving value back to them. And I think the numbers, the numbers do that, the customer service does that, how you all are going to care for their client speaks to the value driven back to them. Is there anything that they're ever asking in return, other than just delivering on your promises?

[ 00:19:25 ] Is there anything else that you all can do to go above and beyond for them or anything else you can, like, give them in return? Everybody wants referrals. So, you know, and it's interesting because we're, we're in the business of home care. We're in the business of keeping people at home. So, we tell people it's, it's not going to be a one for one referral relationship. We can't give you one for every that we get. If we, if we could do that, we wouldn't be very good at what we do, which like I said, is keeping people at home. Anytime we have an opportunity, you know, to connect a client of ours to another professional, we absolutely do it. We have very extensive; we have very extensive relationships across the industry.

[ 00:20:10 ] So we definitely believe. It's kind of part of providing our clients with a concierge type service, you know, connecting them with other resources that can benefit them. And then that in turn, of course, you know, that helps us as well, because we're giving back to different referral sources. Another big thing is having a little bit of fun. You know, we love to have fun here at HomeWell. One way we can do that is with our referral partners, whether it's sponsoring an event for them, taking them out, having a good time, getting to know them a little bit outside of work. That definitely helps in building the relationship. And also, it helps to create value for them. Yeah. Let's go down that path a little bit about like initiatives, you know, is it events?

[ 00:20:51 ] Is it lunches? What are, what are, what works well? And I know you talked about kind of the different referral types, SNFs, assisted living, geriatric care managers, hospitals. What, what initiatives work well, maybe for each of those, or is it kind of blanketed like lunch and learns work great for all of them? Or have you found specific initiatives or events that work well, maybe for different referral types. I think we have, um, what we call four, four activities, you know, there, there are four activity types that really yield great results for us. Uh, the first being a presentation, you know, your, your time spent on an account is useless if they don't know, if they don't really understand what you do. So, you know, that's a five, 10-minute presentation over lunch, um, that helps to kick things off.

[ 00:21:39 ] Uh, we love to sponsor events, you know, that's great. At, uh, skilled nursing facilities and at assisted living, uh, communities where maybe they don't have such an extensive budget for, uh, things for their communities. We're able to help out in that way. Uh, we love having fun outside of work, you know, whether it's going to, um, you know, to dinner or happy hour or to a ball game. Um, and then there's just the, you know, standard breakfast and lunches, uh, whether, you know, we like to set up for, um, you are meetings, you know, when, when they're, when in the skilled nursing facility. We want to be top of mind for that. So, sponsoring something like that is definitely helpful. The thought that I'm having comes back to budget.

[ 00:22:23 ] You mentioned, you know, a hundred active partners talk about sponsoring lunches, events, all sorts of things for that many partners. It gets really expensive, really quick. And I'm sure the question that's always top of mind for you is ROI, you know, is what we're spending, you know, bringing back referrals. Um, do you have like a set, maybe annual budget for each partner or is it always in flux because things are changing or how do you budget and a plan for this many events for that many partners? So, we, we give each of our marketers, they have a budget and, you know, it's really up to them to manage it, uh, properly. And I definitely, you know, I can help support that. Um, but it starts with them, and they're usually very good about managing it properly.

[ 00:23:09 ] The budget is appropriate that you can do. One of these, uh, event types at every community in a given year. Um, and then of course, yeah, it's measuring ROI. Um, you know, we track every dollar that is spent at every account and what results from it, you know, from a revenue standpoint, from a referral and from an admission standpoint. And if there's not ROI, uh, we stop spending at a certain point. Let's talk about the, the maintenance of these referral partners. So, you know, speaking to probably the, the marketers out in the field, the, the most important thing with these people is in order to get a steady flow of referrals, you have to stay top of mind for that referral partner. And you have to maintain that relationship.

[ 00:24:00 ] You have to work at that relationship. It's not that you went into the presentation and asked for the business and now they're referring you 10 clients every week. Like that's just not typically the reality. And so, you have to maintain those relationships. What does that, what is your approach to that look like? How many touch points are there? How often are they, you know, going into that office to bring them a coffee or, you know, relight that relationship? What, what does that just maintenance of these referral partners look like for your marketers and for the whole team? Yes. The communication and consistency are key. Um, I would say in person at a minimum once per week, it also depends on the potential of the referral source. You know, um, high volume.

[ 00:24:41 ] You know, high volume discharging, uh, skilled nursing facilities require maybe more touch points than, um, an assisted living community, but generally speaking, weekly in person is great. And then in terms of other touch points, literally as many as we can possibly think of too many touch points is, uh, is no issue. Whenever we get a referral, you know, the communication is not constant, but it is again consistent, thanking them for the referral. And update, uh, for every step of the way throughout that inquiry process. And the most important is after the fact, letting them know how their patient is doing. Uh, and that kind of goes with our go home well program. We like to celebrate our 0% readmission rate.

[ 00:25:28 ] So anytime we have somebody graduate from our go home well program, we're back there at the referral source, letting them know, you know, the, uh, the readmission window has passed. Uh, who else do you have just like that? That we can. And we usually start off the year like that as well, you know, uh, kind of reflecting back on the previous year. Uh, these are the clients that you sent home with us. This is the outcome. Let's do this again. And even more so this year. I'm assuming a lot of that, the digital communication takes place via email, correct? Obviously, you can go out and visit them in the office and have these conversations, but it sounds like there's probably a lot of written communication that's taking place over email.

[ 00:26:11 ] Is that fair? A lot of email, a lot of texting, but again, any opportunity, especially on an editor, an account where maybe we're struggling to get into a little bit, if we have an opportunity to go there and tell them in person rather than emailing them, we do that because that's, uh, that's your ticket inside the door, especially important at a hospital, which is very hard to get into. If you get an inquiry, you know, if you get a referral, uh, or we have an inquiry call, we really want to get that assessment because that gets us physically into the hospital. Let's talk about getting qualified leads. I think, uh, part of the, the name of the game in sales is it's easy to get a high volume of leads.

[ 00:26:52 ] Once you do the work and kind of create the funnel, you can get a lot of leads, but really at the end of the day, you want qualified leads. How all, how are you ensuring that these partners send you qualified leads? How are you ensuring that? What does that look like? So again, it goes, it goes back to tracking every lead that comes in, whether it is qualified or not. Um, we want to capture those that are not qualified, and we want to capture the reason why they're not qualified. If we find that one referral source in particular keeps referring us a client that's outside of our service area, we want to be able to go back to them and explain, Hey, thanks for these five referrals last month.

[ 00:27:35 ] This is why they didn't pan out. This is what, you know, this is what we could do a little bit differently to make sure that. You know, we're able to help those that you're sending our way. Uh, we would not be able to do that if we did not track every call that, uh, that comes in. Um, it also comes back to forming that account list. If you've identified the facilities that, you know, have your clientele in them, we know that there's opportunity there and it's, it's trying to figure out, you know, why are we not getting that opportunity or not? And it probably, you mentioned finding them. Partners that have your clientele there, but then it's also probably part of that, like initial relationship building is explaining to them, detailing out your qualification criteria so that they are sending qualified leads.

[ 00:28:24 ] And then it's repeating that conversation based off the leads that they sent. If they're good leads, if they're bad leads, if they're okay leads, just continuing to like to refine in their mind who the right fit people are. Um, you, would you mind sharing? Yeah. Kind of what that qualification criteria looks like for you. Is it a long laundry list because you have been around for so long and you know exactly who you're looking for? Is it kind of like six to eight criteria? What, what does that look like? We try to keep it as basic as possible because as you, as you just said, you know, they, uh, these referral partners have dozens, if not hundreds of other vendors coming in every week, trying to get an opportunity to work with them.

[ 00:29:05 ] So you can imagine it's very hard for them to keep track of who does what and who wants what type. Of patient of theirs and who can help what type. So, we try to make it very, uh, simple. Um, it's about six to eight points and, you know, we're really just trying to drive home. Um, you know, who do you have in the building that has functional limitations? Who do you have in rehab right now that you're discharging that has not met their goals yet? Who is a fall risk who has Alzheimer's or dementia? Uh, so those are just, you know, a handful of the basic clinical qualification points, but then also the big one is who has the resources to pay for this privately.

[ 00:29:42 ] A lot of referral sources we find need to be reminded that it is a private pay service. We're not covered under Medicaid. We're not covered under Medicare. Um, and then a real big differentiator for us over the last year or so has been, um, we are a credential provider through the VA's community care network. So really, any veteran that is passing through a facility or a community that we want to be put in touch with because they are eligible for a benefit that is hugely valuable. Okay. And they just don't know. Back to just like the competitive nature here. Um, it may not be uncommon for them to confuse you with another agency or, you know, like, I, I don't know, not, not forget about you, but just like, there's a lot of relationships, a lot of people, a lot of faces.

[ 00:30:30 ] Like, it's just a lot for them to keep track of. Um, are there any other like creative ways I'm thinking of like swag or something that you all know? Do to try and like really stand out as a company to these referral partners, any creative things that you've done or tried that have failed, that have succeeded. I mean, Stanley was a big hit this year, wasn't it? Yes. Stanley made an impression. So, we did, we did these for a social work month. Uh, those are a big hit. Um, and you know, we are in everything that we do, we are all about quality. So, Stanley was a quality name this year. Uh, so we do quality swag. Um, But, you know, again, it's, it's consistency with our sales reps.

[ 00:31:13 ] Uh, there's a stat out there. I don't know. It takes eight to 10 touch points or something like that before somebody really remembers you, or it was really willing to give you an opportunity. So, we have to, if we are getting in front of these accounts every week, uh, consistently try to get there at the same time every week. So that they almost just become programmed to expect you. And so that usually helps. We also put, you know, we put our marketers' faces on collateral. Um, so that they can associate a face with the brand. So, without giving away too much secret sauce, I think that's, that's it. Yeah, no, that's great. I think the word that you're saying too, is like quality, you know, when it comes to the swag or the collateral, you want to put your best foot forward there, but then also just the quality and the consistency of those visits every single week at the same time, there's like a meaningful interaction there.

[ 00:32:05 ] I think probably one of the things that you're, you're referencing too is sharing an update about the clients, these people, like we're all in it for the clients at the end of the day and their satisfaction and their happiness and their health. And so, you know, when these marketers go back out, it's also giving them, they, they can be armed with the information about the clients, about the referrals and say, 'Hey, you know, Mrs. Jones is doing great here.' It's like an update on her. And I think that probably goes such a long way with them in really delivering like quality information about the clients. Because that's who they care about. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, let's talk about, um, I'm just curious about like training and supporting your marketers, kind of your whole sales team.

[ 00:32:46 ] So you're responsible for these people and their, their metrics and their success. Um, how, how are you training these reps? Did a lot of them come with sales experience with healthcare experience, or are they all kind of from different backgrounds and how do you train them up to be really successful in their roles? So, our team as it stands right now, actually, nobody has a home care background. Um, I'd say about half have a sales background or marketers definitely have a sales background. You know, that's, that is really important. You know, when you're evaluating candidates to fill roles, um, not everybody in sales needs to be a salesperson. In fact, some really shouldn't be. So, we found that some of our best salespeople on the intake side, you know, the ones that are actually interacting with clients and their families, are maybe best at being not too salesy.

[ 00:33:38 ] So people don't want to be sold. Uh, they want to be heard and understood, and they want to know that their needs are going to be met on the marketing side, though. You need somebody who is consistent, a little bit aggressive, not afraid to hear no. And, uh, that usually is, is well-suited by a salesperson. So, in terms of training, everybody on the team gets the same training for the most part. Obviously, the different roles get a little bit more emphasis on certain things, but everybody is really cross trained to perform everybody's function. And that helps us in a situation like last week, we had, you know, four people on summer vacation, but everybody else, including myself, was able to kind of step in and take calls, meet with families, get in front of referral partners.

[ 00:34:21 ] Because we all have, you know, we all have a shared mission. We all understand the mission, and, uh, everybody's able and willing to kind of jump in and pitch in to, to get to mission accomplishment. So, let's talk about the, uh, the intake team. Because like you just mentioned, they're not necessarily salespeople by trade. You know, maybe that's a little bit like this to their disadvantage in some ways. Um, your current intake team, as it stands, are those people that you have promoted from within, from different roles or what are their backgrounds? Like what, where have they come from and what makes them good at what they do? I'm just curious if they if there's any like parallels or, uh, commonalities for those people. Um, you know, one has one.

[ 00:35:08 ] It has, um, one has maybe a background in assisted living. One actually does have some home care background, not necessarily in home care sales. Another worked in school, and another is a registered nurse. So very diverse backgrounds. All of them are what's most important, caring, and compassionate people and sincere people. Like I said, people who really want to help and are able to stop and listen and understand what the client is saying. Mm-hmm. Awesome. And you mentioned the marketers out in the field also come from kind of a variety of sales-related backgrounds. Um, have you, have you ever strived to hire people that have preexisting relationships that would be advantageous to their role? Or are you okay finding someone that maybe doesn't have any preexisting relationships with these SNFs or assisted livings and being able to like coach them up and get them comfortable and confident out there?

[ 00:36:06 ] Or have you ever, you know, tried to find people that already have those relationships or is that not high priority for you? We have, we've tried a mix of things, but we found it's just not the highest priority. The highest priority is finding the right person, somebody with a work ethic, somebody who can hustle, uh, who wants to get the job done. The rest can be taught. You know, the relationships can be found. Those can be made. Uh, we have a lot of just in 20 years in business, we've got a lot of preexisting relationships that our reps can leverage. But it's not the most. The important thing to us, what's most important is really there, their personality, their drive, and their work ethic. Yeah. I'm just curious.

[ 00:36:46 ] Cause every again, every business is a little bit different, you know, some, some new business owners want to find someone that has those preexisting relationships. So, they're not starting from scratch, but in your case, yeah, maybe it's more the skillset, the personality, the abilities that speak louder than the, the existing relationships. And at every stage of business, you have to kind of make those judgment calls and identify. What's kind of the right decision at the right time. Um, the thing too, is that in our industry, there's, there's so much turnover. So, somebody could come on board and have preexisting relationships, but that relationship could be done two months later. So, if you're, if you're putting too much weight on that, you may be putting your, your emphasis on the wrong thing.

[ 00:37:26 ] That's a really good point. Can you share about compensation? A lot of people, I don't know if you're in any like home care, Facebook groups, or kind of like the chatter. A lot of people ask about how to compensate marketers and intake reps. Um, are you willing to share, not, not necessarily even like specific figures, but just like how the compensation structure works for the different members of your team and what, what has worked well. I I'm sure, like most compensation things have evolved over the years and you kind of try and test and, and work things out, but what has compensation looked like for your team? So, when you're developing your comp plan, I think you really need to find what motivates everybody a little bit differently.

[ 00:38:10 ] Everybody needs a little bit of a push in a different area, figure out what that is, and you can motivate them with compensation to push them a little bit more. So, um, it's okay to have different comp plans for different people. I don't think that there is a one-size-fits-all approach across an organization. So, you know, without getting into numbers or anything, I think that uh, I think that's my big takeaway is figure out what motivates each individual and how can you use calm to give them a little bit of a push to do what you need them to do. I take it that the, the marketers versus like the intake team, their compensation structures probably look pretty different. I am curious though, is there performance-based compensation for both of those teams?

[ 00:39:02 ] Like, I'm sure that's pretty straightforward and obvious for the field reps. Like, uh, like there would be any kind of traditional sales role for the intake team though. Is there also a layer of their compensation that is performance or outcome based? Yes. Performance-based. I think, uh, I think in sales, everybody needs a little bit of a performance-based out plan. Yeah. I was just curious because the intake team could, yeah, it could not be, you know, you can just kind of pay people salaries that are, you know, fair wage for their role. But, um, I think. In home care, there's just a lot of opportunities to pay potentially everyone in the office, some sort of like performance-based compensation because everyone's roles are tied to numbers or metrics or outcomes.

[ 00:39:47 ] And so, um, like you said, it depends on what motivates people. Everyone's motivated. A scheduler has a different motivation than a marketer, than an intake coordinator, than a nurse. But at the end of the day, you're all working towards the same goals. You can break those goals down into metrics. And so, um, just in general at HomeWell, is there kind of a push for performance-based compensation, or is that pretty, pretty closely tied to just like the sales org? I have to be honest. I don't really know across other departments, um, how they are compensated. Um, I can just speak to, you know, what goes on here within sales. There's definitely a performance. You know, I think for folks that are interacting with clients and you need them to close a sale, I think they need to be motivated to do so.

[ 00:40:33 ] And I, and, you know, you want them, you want to motivate people to outperform their targets and their goals. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, that's great. That's great. I think, yeah, there's a lot to, a lot to be said about compensation, but I think one of the underlying messages here too, is just having an open conversation with your sales reps, with your marketers, with these people finding out what motivates them. You know, what pay needs to look like. And then just letting that be kind of an ongoing conversation to make sure their needs are being met. I want to ask you about, uh, like challenges or headaches, you know, like what, what keeps you up at night in your role?

[ 00:41:18 ] I don't know if that's too personal to ask, but what is it that stresses you out in your role today when it comes to managing the sales team and managing these referral partners? Well, you know, the, the performance of the sales team and. Yeah. You know, which is a major, uh, contributor to the performance of the company all starts with referrals. So, what keeps me up at night is when we're not, if and when we're not hitting our referral targets, um that's hugely important. And um you know that's something that we are you know we're always trying to figure out this balancing act of how we do not have a slowdown you know if hospitals are snow slow and snips are slow we can't be slow.

[ 00:41:59 ] So we're trying to find that balancing act of how many How many different uh of each of the referral source types do we need to be calling on to maintain a steady uh consistent stream of referrals coming in here in the office? I'd say that's one of the biggest, uh, you know, that's one of the biggest pain points for me. And you're keeping a pulse on that. You're looking at the numbers, you know, you're looking at the spreadsheets, keeping an eye on all of that. What does that then translate into? You know, say one month, like you're feeling all of this stress. All of this heat and the numbers aren't looking good. Like in your mind, what do you go out and do? What does that look like? What does that translate to?

[ 00:42:39 ] So you'll usually feel the effects of that the following month. If we have a slow referral month, we're going to have a slow admission month, probably the next month. Um, what does that make us do? It makes us think critically about what can we do differently next month? What can we do differently next year? How do we need to revise our strategy? Always got to be thinking ahead. Um, you know, you can't. You can't be thinking just today, uh, because what, you know, what happens today, uh, you know, is, is really in the past, you know, we got to be thinking ahead and always developing new sales strategies, new tactics, um, coaching the reps, you know, get, getting out in the field, figuring out why are we having a downturn?

[ 00:43:22 ] Are we saying the right things? Are we asking for referrals? You don't get what you don't ask for. If you're going around to referral sources and you're just dropping things off and hanging out, and. You know, shooting the breeze, uh, you're not going to walk out with referrals. That's one of the most important, that's like step one, you know, it's slow. Are we asking for the sale? But it's good to repeat those things. You know, if someone's been with you for, you know, months or years, you figure a lot of that is like second nature. Like they know those things, but it's easy to get lax. It's easy to shoot the breeze. It's easy to lose sight of some of the, the most important fundamental things.

[ 00:44:00 ] If someone's been in the role for a long time, um, this, this might also be kind of a, I don't know, uncomfortable question. Um, a lot of times in home care and in business, it's easy to bring on the wrong people to hire the wrong people. And nobody likes to fire people. That's not an easy thing to do, but I would take it in your six years. You've maybe, maybe had to let people go or brought on maybe the wrong people. Um, any experiences that you can share about just. How you went through that and what the outcome of, of maybe bringing on the wrong person, but letting them go and it being a good thing or moving them to a different position, just kind of the flux of your team and what you've learned.

[ 00:44:44 ] Yeah. So, something that's really important to me, and I know really important to the company, especially the leadership, Lou and Laura. Um, we want to know that we've given everybody a chance and we've given them everything that we have as leaders to help coach them through their employment. Give them the resources that they need to be successful. Um, and until that happens, uh, we don't really get to the, you know, get to the point of, of letting somebody go. Has it happened? Absolutely. At the end of the day, it's usually just, it's usually mutual, quite honestly, like this just wasn't necessarily the right fit for them. It's a demanding job. It's not for everybody. Um, and sometimes it just takes a little bit of time for everybody to figure that out, but you know, we will do everything that we can to give them an opportunity to be successful here.

[ 00:45:35 ] Hmm. Yeah, that's great. What about managing, uh, conflicts or challenges with referral partners? Um, I'm assuming over the years and with, you know, hundreds of partners, uh, conflicts or challenges can arise with these people as well. Um, does anything come to mind of a, like a challenge or a conflict that maybe a marketer or yourself has had with a referral partner and how that was dealt with? Because. Um, it's not always perfect and easy and clean, like conflicts arise, I'm assuming. So, any, anything come to mind in that sense? Well, we're, we're really fortunate here that we have, um, we have enough depth across our organization to really have the right people in place to handle any type of situation that come, that could come up.

[ 00:46:21 ] So, um, you know, being accountable and owning up to mistakes, I think is, is huge. And it's a great opportunity for us to show a referral source, uh, that we are accountable. And that, uh, this is not a perfect business. It's not a perfect industry. It's a very tough industry to work in, but we have the experience and the people in place, uh, to work through those types of conflicts. Um, if there's ever been a conflict, I can think of some in particular, one strategy is to use turnover as an opportunity. You know, maybe, maybe there's conflict with, uh, an administrator or an employee for whatever reason. It's okay to put that account on, on pause and go find another. There's plenty out there and wait for there to be some turnover.

[ 00:47:04 ] That's an opportunity for a fresh slate, you know, clean slate to get back in there and to give it another shot. Yeah. I like that using turnover to your advantage. I mean, turnover is so common in healthcare and home care, but I think, yeah, what you're saying is like, there's turnover at these other offices at the SNFs at the assisted livings. And so, you may go back to that partner three months later, six months later, and it could be a different face with a different personality and a different, you know, motivation. And being able to use that to your advantage and get back out in front of them. I think that's great. Um, we're, we're coming up on time here. Um, what, uh, what motivates you? What keeps you going day in and day out?

[ 00:47:44 ] Obviously sales is a demanding, hard job, let alone managing a large sales team at a growing, scaling home care business. What, uh, what excites you? What motivates you to keep going? What motivates me is seeing everybody in my department, uh, succeed. And at the end of the day, I feel good going home, knowing that, uh, everybody's doing well and, uh, you know, they're achieving great things and, uh, I really, I want that for them. I want them to be successful. I want them to be promoted from within. Um, and then what else motivates me? My family, you know, providing for my family, for my wife, my kids, and, uh, giving them the best life that they could have. So that's, that's what gets me up every morning and gets me here.

[ 00:48:30 ] And, uh, yeah. Let's end with what advice. So, a lot of owners, operators, and down to sales reps that will be listening to this. Um, but thinking from the perspective of other sales leaders, what, what advice would you give them? You know, you've been in it for years and you've experienced the highs and the lows like anyone would have. But what advice would you give to other sales leaders, um, that would help them or motivate them? Or just what, you know, advice would you impart to them? Whether it's managing referral sources or managing your intake process or managing your sales reps, track the data and go where the numbers tell you to go or do what the numbers tell you to do. Numbers do not lie.

[ 00:49:21 ] They tell a story, they show trends, and they help you make informed, uh, management and sales decisions. So, you can develop KPIs. You can advertise for just about anything, uh, you know, in sales, and track them too much data is never a problem, better to have too, too much, and too little, uh, but the numbers are always something you can fall back on and help you to make the right, uh, and the most educated, best decisions possible. Hmm. Yeah, that's great, John. Thank you. Thank you for sharing a lot of good insights from you today. And I know you're, you're talking about like the spreadsheets and the KPIs. We didn't go too much into that today, which I think is okay.

[ 00:50:03 ] Um, but I, I maybe want to just tee you up here at the end and say, uh, John is a busy guy, but, uh, I know you all at HomeWell have a lot of other business owners come and kind of mentor and shadow you. And so, I would say at the least anyone listening to this can connect with John on LinkedIn, um, reach out to him, ask him questions. And as he has time, he'll be able to respond to those. Um, again, I know you're busy, John, so don't want to tie you up for too much, but I know you have a lot of wisdom. So, if you have any questions, please feel free to reach out to me at home.well.com and I'll be happy to answer any questions that you might have.

[ 00:50:31 ] Awesome. Well, thanks, thanks for being here, John. Great conversation. It's been my pleasure to interview you Lou last week and you this week and talk a little bit more about just the success that you all have had at HomeWell in New Jersey. I think you are really kind of a, a model for what a large sophisticated, but really compassionate and high-quality home care business is. And I think a lot of people will take some good insights away from these episodes. So, thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Miriam. And it was fun. Appreciate it.