$20M in 20 Years—Strategies from a Successful Home Care Franchise Owner

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HomeWell Care Services of New Jersey

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[ 00:00:04 ] Welcome everyone to Home Care U, a podcast by Careswitch. I'm Miriam Allred, your host. It's great to be back with everyone. We've got a good group waiting in the wings, so I'm letting you all in... good to be with you as always. We are in a live Zoom class, so for those of you listening to this live, jump in the chat, jump in the Q&A, interact with us in real time if you've got questions as we go along today don't be bashful; jump in address those, and we will get to them if we've got time today. So, really quick... Home Care U is produced by Careswitch. Careswitch is an AI-powered operating system for home care. If you're dissatisfied with your technology or looking for more operational efficiency with AI, visit careswitch.com or reach out to us.

[ 00:00:44 ] We'd love to hear from you today. I've got another all-star home care leader in the hot seat. I'm joined today by Lou Romano; he's the owner of HomeWell Care Services of New Jersey. I've had the privilege to meet him in person, I've visited their office. Our team here at Careswitch is collaborating with them nearly weekly at this point and so we're friends but I also deeply respect and admire what Lou has built, so I figured it was time to get him on the show, time to share his story and talk about the strategies and success that he's had. So, Lou thanks for being here. Thank you for having me, Miriam. This is exciting and you're very kind. I appreciate that. Thank you. I hope you feel a little on edge today.

[ 00:01:25 ] I told you before, I'm not going to take it easy on you and I'm really, excited to pick your brain today. So um, traditionally we do kind of an extended introduction here at the top, I told you this episode is going to be all about you and about your business and about your success so we're just going to get right after it today, but before we start into things, I wanted you to give a little bit of a lay of the land of your operation today so people can kind of conceptualize. Where you are today, and then as we go backwards, tell the story. I want people to understand you know where you're at today so quickly could you tell us just um a couple of numbers of figures like how big the office team about is how big are the rosters billable hours annual revenue just so people can get a taste of where you're at today.

[ 00:02:07 ] Absolutely so we're approaching our 20th year, uh, we have there's three locations, uh, Hackensack and then maybe a half hour away in Union, and then another 45 minutes away down the Jersey Shore in Brick, and within those three locations, we have just over 50 administrative staff. I would say there's 150 active caregivers, uh, working throughout the all three locations, uh, we have probably close to 225-230 active clients, uh, we are billable hours this year, probably averaging close to 11,000 hours per week, and we're staring down $22 million in revenue, so that's you know that we're, I think, on the larger side for private pay, but we're still growing, still trying to figure out ways to how do we get to 30. Awesome, awesome!

[ 00:03:02 ] I hope you feel the sense of accomplishment even just sharing those numbers; I got like a little chill up my spine, and I hope you feel the same way as we talk about taking you down memory lane talks about the history... again. I just wanted people understand how you've grown over this last 20 years and what is possible and how you can really scale a large private pay business so um let's take you back to the early days, what motivated you to get into the business and what motivated you to get into the into home care 20 years ago? Where were you at in your life? How did you come across home care and how did you really get your start? Yeah, I was 24 years old working in corporate America and miserable.

[ 00:03:41 ] So um, I always had an entrepreneurial mind starting at a very young age and I knew I did not like working for someone, so I Was kind of stuck, it was a good job coming out of college, but it was just I knew it wasn't for me, so I started looking at all types of franchise opportunities on I believe the site was franchisegator.com, I don't know if it still exists, but I was looking at pretzel shops and Dunkin' Donuts and other things. And I just I didn't have enough capital, you know, to own like three Dunkin' Donuts 20 years ago you needed a million dollars in cash and I was broke, I was living at home, so um, but I also needed something that I felt would be a good service that made an impact, like I wanted to feel good and I don't I don't know if you know, uh,

[ 00:04:28 ] you know the Baked goods industry was the answer for me, you know I just think I missed my calling as a social worker; um, and I don't get me wrong, I'd love to own 10 Dunkin Donuts right now, it's just that I don't think it would have you know satisfied that need um, so during that research, my grandmother got sick and we had a very interesting and poor experience in home care; my grandmother was tough, you know, in their defense, but uh the main complaint I had was the customer service from the agency administration; it was absolutely horrible, um, and I didn't think people or families should have to deal with that, so that kind of piqued my interest.

[ 00:05:10 ] Because I said, if I can do a little bit better than what these people are doing, which is very low um, I could be successful in this so that and that's when I started looking at the senior care industry on the franchise site. And ultimately connected with Home Well, hmm. And so early on you had this franchise model in your mind. The industry looked very differently 20 years ago than it does today. It sounds like out of the gate you were sold on kind of the franchise model and the support and resources was there more to that decision or was that just you know, kind of obvious to you from the start

[ 00:05:46 ] to go the franchise route I think for me I mean again I had very little business experience I had no idea how to run a company I just knew how I had a big heart and to work hard I think from the beginning I wouldn't have been able to do this on my own without you know just where I was in my life without the franchise model so yeah very early on I decided that was the right move and to speak to HomeWell just briefly 20 years ago I think HomeWell was probably pretty new and so you were maybe even an early if not the earliest franchise was that appealing to you to work for maybe a smaller brand at the time it was I was the seventh franchisee

[ 00:06:25 ] So, you know, and I spoke with a lot of different I spoke with you know, some others like Home Instead, the big ones, you know, they had Visiting Angels 600-700 locations, and what I didn't really like about it was I got that corporate feel, that regional feel. I had to report to three different people, and I was, I was just a number, I was you know, wanted to be treated like you know big fish in a small pond, and that's what HomeWell gave me; they gave me a lot of attention and a lot of support and encouragement in the beginning, way more than I was just being sold by the bigger locations, which you know, there's an incredible upside to working with.

[ 00:07:05 ] a larger franchise, but at the time that HomeAway was what I wanted I wanted that you know small family feel. Let's talk about the early days if you can take yourself back to those early months, those early years. What were some of the biggest challenges that you faced? Early on, there was a lot. And I just have to say, like throughout 20 years of this, I've probably made more mistakes than everyone that's watching right now combined. So, the first thing I was up against was just inexperience like I was saying, you know being a 24-year-old kid, I just had a big drive to succeed, but I was so inexperienced in the business world and my mom who was A, I don't know what the proper word is now, but it's a housewife for 20 plus years and raised

[ 00:07:54 ] three maniacs including my dad so it's really four and she jumped right in it with me and you know worked for free for a while and she didn't have much experience either in the business world; she was just a mom giving her love to her firstborn child that you know she'd do anything for him, so I was like, 'Come help me.' My dad was a great you know he was a great businessman, and he was helping give advice but not working on the business with us. So how did I overcome that experience? I guess you know there's that old expression that hard work beats talent every day and that's what I did you know I'm not the I'm not the most I'm not the smartest person you know I just I worked really hard, and I was obsessed with making this business.

[ 00:08:43 ] successful I'd imagine you and your mom both wore a lot of hats what were some of kind of your areas of operation what were some of her areas of operation and then at what point did you start hiring people to figure out how to do that and how did you start hiring people to figure out how to fill some of the gaps yeah so we basically did it all together we did almost I mean I was focusing on like half sales and half administrative work and at night I did the billing or the payroll, and she helped a little bit too, like we just grew into the business together. She did a lot of the um the HR duties, so caregiver interviews and you know getting them prepared to complete their file for work.

[ 00:09:19 ] So while I was you know out in the field in the afternoon trying to drum up business, she was holding the fort in the office. And as we grew, that became a challenge. So, uh what was what was the question? What was the last question? I don't know, yeah. And then when did you start hiring people? Was that pretty quickly or was that years in? So, I was yeah, so I would say about um maybe the one-year mark, I was stuck. Between 750 hours and 1,000 hours a week, so once we started getting this cooking, I couldn't get it past that 1,000 hour mark every time we would get there we would drop. And I think you know it was tough because it was just me and my mom, and I just started making some money, and again, I was young, I was 24 years old turning 25, and like I said, I was broken, and I put every dollar I had into this, so um, you know.

[ 00:10:16 ] I think to make that decision to not take any money after one year, and higher yeah, I think just having that discussion for a little bit, and um, you know it's just one of some of the things I learned. We hired a part-time staffer, um, an experienced sales rep which was scary for us, but we had to take the leap, so it was like another reinvestment and that move really freed us up to uh to grow at the next level, so and um I just kept hiring after that. After I saw lots of struggling and need, you know we just like you fast forward today, our most significant growth has been in the last three years in transforming our sales department. So, we're just like I have a lot of work to do but that's about it. It's constantly tinkering with, you know, what we needed to do back then. The same applies today. It's just much more professional.

[ 00:11:04 ] Well, and I'm glad you; I'm glad you mentioned that like early on. I think this is key for a lot of new startups, even small businesses. You said you got kind of stunted around that thousand-hour mark and were fearful and hesitant to hire somebody else, especially if it's your first like external, large, you know, salaried employee. That's a really huge step. But like you said, it probably helped you unlock the growth when you bring in someone new with new perspectives, new news, new ideas, new talent. You know, they can help probably like reinvigorate the growth and the success. And look, here you are today with almost 50 employees in the office. And so early on, it was a challenge. But then, like you said, you just start hiring and keep growing.

[ 00:11:45 ] I want to ask about, you know, 20 years ago, like the chicken and the egg. Was it harder for you to get clients or harder for you to get caregivers? Or were you able to find both pretty easily early on? The caregivers were pretty easy early on. The clients were the challenge. And that was because I was, you know, again, young, and inexperienced. And I wasn't I didn't have a sales background, although I could do it. I did really well with it. I think. It just I was doing part time sales, and I think that's a mistake when you start out in your business. So, if you're going to get part time sales, you're going to get part. Time results and really, you know, and I also wasn't really following the sales system completely.

[ 00:12:30 ] So the sales struggled, and I was undercapitalized. So that's, you know, that almost kind of finished us off early on. Like within the first six months, I was struggling like we got to us don't I'm running out of money. So, you know, the sales were an issue, but the caregivers were always, you know, coming in and we paid we paid higher than. Then the normal rate of the going rate at the time. And that was helpful. So, we always had a good stream of caregivers coming into our office. And then once they get to know us and our family, you know, we fell in love with most of them. And it was, you know, they started referring their friends. So, recruiting has always been fairly easy.

[ 00:13:10 ] Yeah, we'll talk about what that looks like today at scale. But I was curious early on what that looked like. You talked about, you know, your approach to sales a little bit. You were kind of half doing sales. It sounds like you made some mistakes or weren't approaching it the right way. What was your approach early on? You're in a big metro. So, there's a lot of potential hospital systems, healthcare systems. Were you taking kind of a boots on the ground approach to sales or were there other things that were working or weren't working? What were some of your early approaches? Yeah, the only thing that really has ever been incredibly successful is relationship marketing. So, the boots on the ground, you know, sometimes six or seven days a week, I was seeing social workers and referral sources.

[ 00:13:53 ] I was available to them 24/7. So not until I started doing the full-time sales, until we hired that staffer and I just got out there and I started really committing to doing the billing and the payroll at night. That's when we became, you know, we had big growth, and then I hired the rep, and I still went and did sales. So, it was two of us doing, you know, sales accounts. I never really fully enjoyed doing the sales of it. But, you know, my favorite piece was, you know, working with the families that they referred. So that was, you know, I think that's, you know, that was probably the most fun time of the 20 years of just meeting the families and, you know, just getting to know them.

[ 00:14:39 ] Did you say that you hired the sales rep that you hired? Did they have previous experience in home care or previous like health care sales background? What was their background? Background was real estate. So, it wasn't health care. It was just a, you know, a true salesman. He's not with us now. He's probably one of the worst people I've ever met in my life. But I got to be honest, you know, he was good at sales. So that was, you know, that was helpful for us to grow. Okay. Because the point being, you know, you said early on you didn't enjoy sales. You enjoyed spending time with the family. Your mom was really good at like the hiring, the HR side.

[ 00:15:17 ] I think that's a kind of a pitfall for a lot of early owners is not being honest with themselves. About what they like and also what they're good at. And then finding people to fill in the gaps or fill in their weaknesses. And it sounds like, you know, you struggled, like you said, and maybe almost went under the first six months. But then you, you know, maybe like a heart-to-heart with yourself and your mom and found out that, like, we've got to hire someone that has this skill set. And then we can start to accelerate. It's so true because there's a lot of ego, too. And even now, I mean, as I've grown, I've had to give up a lot of things because there's just other people.

[ 00:15:52 ] People in the company that are better than me. So, you know, this is my baby and I'm going to go give it to someone else to watch. And it's a tough decision. So, you got to just put that ego aside at some point and, you know, let other people shine. Let's quick, quick like teaser. Next week, I'm actually going to interview HomeWell's Director of Sales, John Neagle. And they have built a really large, successful sales operation within their business. So, know that we're going to talk really in-depth about the sales program that you all have built and how you manage all those referral partners. So just want to get people excited for that. Let's talk about scaling up. So, we kind of talked a little bit about like the first year.

[ 00:16:33 ] Let's talk about like years two through five. What were some of the key decisions that you made to start to really accelerate growth? And what were some of the key challenges that you started to experience in those like kind of mid years? Well, that's a that's a tough question. Honestly, I put we put everything. We were so sales focused. And we just we had tremendous growth in those in those in that time period. And then, you know, it was it was interesting. So, I would say the first five years, we just we grew to a point of we had a lot of growing pains. You know, you just got to keep hiring and then you keep hiring administrative staff. And you start to as you grow, you start to hire the wrong administrative staff.

[ 00:17:20 ] So it's like you're hiring. And you're firing and you're trying to build a team, you know, to continue to grow. So, once you realize, like, wow, we can do this. Well, all right. We're doing, you know, 2000 hours a week. Let's get to four. And how do we get to eight? And challenges come, you know, all throughout that. I would say after five years, I got I got married. And that was like my first like burnout period where I was like, you know, 2009. I was. I was just everything was too much. I was working 24 seven. I was on call for seven years. The first seven years of the business, I was on call. That was a lot. That was always a challenge. So, my personal life was put to the side.

[ 00:18:06 ] And then when I got married, I was I said, you know, I'm going to take some time off. So, I didn't go to the office a lot. I played a lot of golf. And that was a mistake. That was the first year we saw like business decline a little bit. So, but that was, you know, but that's how I dealt with, you know, I needed a break. And so that was, you know, there was the growth was there and it was all. Well, and good, but there was, you know, there's some tough times of times. And that was like one period. I would say that year five was a tough period for me. Let's dig into you said 'like' growth was pretty easy early on. You said getting clients was pretty easy.

[ 00:18:48 ] What was behind that? Was it just pure, like, drive and grit and, like, motivation? Motivating the team? Was there? I don't know the brand, the recognition, like, what were some of, like, the levers that you feel like attributed to that fast growth in those first five years? I think the first five years it was I would have to say it was really sale. The growth was sales-based. It was it was just non-stop customer service. I think that's what we excelled in was to our referral sources and to the families. And we were. We were known for that. We developed this reputation as just, you know, getting a job done and getting it done well. But, you know, everyone that worked at the company, they gave it their all, whether they're here now or not.

[ 00:19:36 ] You know, they worked hard. You know, we couldn't have done it without them. So, you know, we brought in the sales, but people had to, you know, back us up in the office. And that happened. It wasn't always pretty, but, you know, but it happened. So, you know, it's. There's always that struggle between sales and operations. And I think the operations piece is very important when you're growing. You got to have the right people behind you to back up your sales pitch. Yeah. You're talking a lot about the people. I think one of the balancing acts in home care is a lot of people have the heart for this. But then there also has to be the compensation that accompanies that.

[ 00:20:17 ] A lot of those early employees, what was kind of like the sweet spot for them did a lot of them have like this heart for home care, and that's what made them successful and passionate? Or were you compensating them really well? And like maybe that was a key motivator for them. Now, do you mean the caregivers or the administrators, the administrators? Yeah. So, so we are always I was paid well, you know, to too much, probably, and that worked. But it was, you know, as time goes on, you realize you're probably paying the wrong people too much. Yeah. You know, or it's just it's just not it doesn't add up the amount of salary you're paying versus the effort you're getting. It turns after a while.

[ 00:21:03 ] I think I think the job paid well, but I think that what I looked for was people that, you know, had a heart, and had some compassion and just wanted to work hard. That's really what I've always wanted is good people at the company. We always haven't had that. But I could say today, you know, we have some great people. We have some great people that work for us, and I'd rather hire someone with a big heart and, you know, and, you know, a good mind. Just give me like give me average and a big heart and you care and treat the business like your own and it'll work out. You mentioned, too, that you are all back then and even I know today are prioritized customer service, and that's probably one of your biggest differentiators.

[ 00:21:46 ] You said you personally really enjoy doing that. You also were like a family, you know, run business with you and your mom. So, what's kind of the magic or what's kind of like your recipe for delivering really good customer service? Is that seeing the families often? Is there some sort of like approach that you all take to giving that white glove experience with the families or what does that look like? That's a great question. I feel like it's just like in us. Like it's just like it's just what you know, you want to treat people like you want to, you know, be treated yourself. And I think giving. That, you know, just that energy back has always worked. You know, it's a tough one. I think that it's what I demanded.

[ 00:22:34 ] I was very demanding. I was very tough. I was tough on myself, but I was tough on the people in the beginning. Too tough. And that was what I required is like, you know, someone calls. We answer the phone. We get back to them immediately. We're not waiting days. We're not, you know, it’s same day staffing, same day answering. We wanted that phone answered. We wanted the client, you know, and we did a little too much of like, drop everything you're doing and go fix this, you know, it was like, not everything was so urgent, but that's how I was then. I think people fed off that, and a lot of in a positive way. There were some negatives to that, you know, I had to like, calm down at some point, which I have, I think, you know, if I look back, I was not perfect.

[ 00:23:16 ] I was not a great manager. I was just, you know, I didn't care about the excuses. I just worked. I just wanted the job done and the families to be happy and our referral sources to be happy and our caregivers to be happy. And I sometimes my approach just wasn't the best. But I think your team would agree that this is like you embodied that, that example of customer service, I'd assume you were maybe mentoring people, you know, that filled those roles, you personally were probably taking them out to the homes and, you know, giving that white glove experience and, like, teaching and training because I think this question is hard. Yeah. Because it's hard to mentor someone on really good customer service. It's almost like they have to have the heart already.

[ 00:23:58 ] But I'm, I'm assuming that you personally were doing a lot of that mentorship and like leading the office by example, to prioritize customer service. For sure. For sure. I was, I was, I was a good example to, for everyone at work, you know, I cared, I cared about them, and I cared about everybody out there. And of course, you know, just how the business was run and the reputation. I think that's really important in-home care is, you know, to have a really solid, impeccable reputation. You know, I think after I was able to like our team now that our leadership team now is like the culture is so different now over the last four years than it was the previous 15.

[ 00:24:42 ] You know, I can't sit here and say that I had a huge piece in that, you know, our CEO, Laura Coyle, you know her well. She has an incredible business mind and she's structured and process oriented. And she really has a long-term vision for success in home care and the culture. And I think if it wasn't without her, I don't know where I would be today. Because, you know, five, six years ago, I just, the company needed something different. They needed different leadership, maybe more positive, more structured, more processed, a better culture. And Laura was able to help us get there. If it wasn't for her, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if we'd be talking. It was different. I would say don't discredit yourself.

[ 00:25:31 ] But I think this is just, you know, like the humility that you're sharing right now is the beauty of home care is you come with an initial vision, mission, mindset, strategy. And as you grow, you bring in new minds, new people, new talent, new perspective. And that's what makes these home care businesses really successful. And that's what makes these home care businesses really successful is being able to identify the right people, the right talent at the right time and being able to grow and evolve. Home care, you know better than I, home care has evolved so much over the last 20 years. But luckily, we have a lot of great people coming to this industry. And that's what's making it stronger, more successful is just all of these people like yourself and like Laura that evolved with the times.

[ 00:26:13 ] And so, again, don't discredit, you know, what you've done. But I think more the humility of being able to evolve. Yeah. I think it's really been a different story for us the last few years. And, yeah, we are we are evolving in a lot of different ways. And it's just I'm very proud of it. You mentioned a couple of times just how you wanted everyone to be happy. You want a happy office. You want happy clients, families, caregivers. That's a lot to ask for in home care. It's not easy to please everyone all the time. You mentioned making some bad hires. Along the way, that's natural. That happens. Any advice to avoid making bad hires and/or how to let people go?

[ 00:26:59 ] That's a big part of this business, too, is you put the wrong person in the wrong seat. You've got to let them go. What's some advice or lessons learned there? Yeah, that's a good that's a good really good question. Yeah, it's funny. I actually met Gary V. I don't know if you ever heard of this guy, Gary V. I met him at a Jets game. And he was talking to me about striking up a conversation. He just said, 'You know, I said, I love the approach of hire fast, fire fast, because it's not something I always followed. I would hire fast, but I would hold on to the wrong people for I'm just I would just try to make it work.' I didn’t want to fire anyone.

[ 00:27:39 ] I didn’t want to change anyone’s life or their trajectory. I just kind of held on too long. And that affected other people. Other employees in the company and, you know, mostly me. It was very stressful. When you hire the wrong people. It becomes a problem. And that's, you know, one of the other pieces that, you know, burn you out in this industry. You know, I would say that is probably the most stressful piece is not, you know, it’s a problem-solving industry. And people think maybe the caregivers are the most, you know, difficult to manage. I don’t think so. For us, it’s it’s. It's the administrative staff over time. So, and we had some rough years with some administrative staff, and now we're in a great place.

[ 00:28:27 ] But just surrounding myself with the wrong team was the biggest stress piece. I'm glad you're mentioning this because I completely agree. I think in home care, we talk a lot about the clients and the caregiver, and client-caregiver satisfaction. The thing is the clients, and the caregivers will come and go. That's natural. Like they ebb and flow, and they oftentimes like almost weed themselves out in a good way. The office staff, however, you know, you hire those people to do a job and things change or roles change responsibilities like the office team is really, really important and also kind of fragile in a sense. And so, like you said, you've got to hire fast, be willing to fire fast. And I think as you scale, as businesses get larger, the office team becomes like you said, maybe too.

[ 00:29:18 ] To the owner, one of the more challenging pieces to manage and to, you know, lead into success. Let's talk about, again, kind of like those mid years. We talk like two through five, you know, five to ten, five to fifteen. I'm assuming, you know, it's just continuing to grow and scale. What about managing finances? Was that a strength of yours? Did you hire, you know, bring someone in to help with the financial element? What were some of the other maybe key hires as we scaled and started to really grow. I think, you know, as far as finances goes, we didn't have a solid budget until probably right around 2020 when we hired a CFO. Until then, it was my dad and I working on the books together and we just cared about three things: revenue, expenses, and net income.

[ 00:30:12 ] And it worked for 14 years. But it just, you know, it was not going to be sustainable. You know, so I was just always like, 'I don't care what we spend, and I don't care about the budget as long as that net income is where it is at the end of every year,' and. It was OK, but now, I mean, I think it's really important that you have to, you know, you have to manage your cash flow and your, your, your, your reserves. You want to be able to invest in either new territories or acquisitions or people, so you don't want to operate too lean. You want to really tighten up your budget. And once we did that, I mean, that really changed the game for us.

[ 00:30:50 ] In 2020, just, you know, COVID hit us really hard. I know a lot of home care people had a good experience with COVID. Their business grew. Ours did not. We got crushed. And, and that kind of, you know, was the catalyst into, you know, doing a budget and doing things the right way. And it was, it was a good decision for us. And as far as hires go, I mean, we have, you know, we, we, over time, we can't do it. We created departments. So, we have multiple people. There are probably seven or eight staffing coordinators. There are eight sales on the sales team. There's eight people. There's probably 13 RNs. There's an HR department, administrative assistant department, billing, payroll, finance. So, we just like kind of all just, just as time went on, you just like create these departments.

[ 00:31:40 ] And then, as help is needed or someone is getting a little burned out, you, you add on to that position. So, we were able to do that. Especially the last few years because of, you know, our, our, our budgeting efforts and just being smarter with our money. Hmm. You mentioned earlier hiring Laura Coyle, who is now the CEO. What, at what point did you bring her in and what was her role? So. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. No, go ahead. Go ahead. So, Laura started as a registered nurse. She's a, she is a registered nurse. But she started as a field nurse 12 years ago. And it, it was interesting, like when I hired her, I knew she was really good. And, you know, she talks about it now, like she can identify that our nursing team was, was, was struggling back then.

[ 00:32:33 ] And she slowly became the leader of that, of that team, which is very important. I mean, this company right now today is run by registered nurses. It's run by clinicians. I think that's how it should be. And. You know, over time, she just kept speaking up and saying things. And I was like, this makes sense. This is what we need. This is fantastic. And finally, I was like, you got to get in here. You got to, you got to come, you know, you got to be at the top. And that was a really good decision for, for me. It also, you know, I took a lot of my responsibility and gave it to her. So, a lot of that, that tough stuff has become her.

[ 00:33:16 ] And that's, that's, I think, one of the best things that I've ever done. And I think that, you know, she's changed this company, you know, tremendously over the last four or five years. So, I would say, you know, 2019 is when I may be right around that is when she started having more active leadership role. And then we named her CEO, you know, early, early this year or last year. Yeah, I love this story, and the reason I'm asking this I'm obviously a very large fan of Laura; really, really admire her. Um, but I think this story is really interesting because she was hired as an RN, what did you say 12 years ago? I didn't actually know this whole backstory, but the part of why I was asking that is sometimes as an owner, you need to bring in like a number two; like you need to bring in someone that could potentially be your replacement, that could potentially push you as an owner.

[ 00:34:10 ] I think there's oftentimes this point as an owner where you feel like you need to bring in another really strong leader, uh, Laura today has become that, but you didn't hire her to be that 12 years ago; she has grown into that and look, she was an RN, and now she's the CEO. I think just that. Evolution of bringing in the right people at the right time, but then also seeing how they grow and evolve with your organization and the success that they can bring. I was going to ask as kind of a follow-up question: did you at any point in time bring in someone to or try to bring in someone that was going to be your replacement or that was going to push you?

[ 00:34:47 ] Or, how did you hire like what would be equivalent to like VPs or C-suite executives? Did you ever make those hires or has it always been people have grown into those roles um people have we've promoted within the company as years have gone on um Laura is really the one who I've given You know the responsibility of the business, um, she's you know I look at her, you know I know I'm the owner of the business and I do have an impact and I do contribute, but she is the number one person in this company, she's a top leader, and um, everyone looks up to her, especially you know the women in our office, it's just it's just great to see um, and you know what she's doing now is you know she's, we have directors of each department, and now we're trying to get a second like an assistant director or a um or a number two for each apartment department, and she's putting that in place, it's going to take some time.

[ 00:35:49 ] it's almost like a reorganization but that's like the next level and that's what I think is going to help us get to the next level of growth um so that's really how we're doing it but in the past I mean when I hired Laura 12 years ago I had I had no idea what I was doing I was just hiring people based on the needs and you know it was messy but it worked it got us to where we are you know like you said I got to give myself some credit but um I think if you really want to be a big player in the industry and also make sure that the quality care as you're growing is a very high level you need to um you need to have some structure and you need to have You know, top leadership and that's what we're getting in Laura, and her.

[ 00:36:34 ] And you said it just a minute ago: the company is run by nurses, and I think that's really neat for you to say you didn't come in as a nurse with a nursing background; you came in from kind of like a business mindset. But the company has grown and evolved and is now kind of like run by nurses. I mentioned that because there's no blueprint for a successful home care office team. You know, there are really successful businesses that are run by business leaders, by sales leaders, by marketing leaders; there are also really successful home care operations. run by nurses and so I think that's one of the things that I love most about.

[ 00:37:10 ] home care is that there's so much diversity in what the office team can look like and I think the picture that you're painting is you can you can just bring in and hire to needs but then identify those people as they like you said Laura was really vocal and speaking up and so you kind of monitor and support these hires and then they can grow into leadership. Positions, director roles, um, etc. And so, I think just your evolution looks differently, but I'm glad we're talking about this because there's no one right way and every team and every leader has to kind of identify the opportunities, identify the people, and grow and evolve um with the business, yeah I agree it's a really good point um what were what were what would you say today looking back at like kind of the full 20 years, what were the hardest moments?

[ 00:38:03 ] I know that's like a really broad question but um you mentioned when you got married and you had to kind of step back personally um what were just maybe some of the hardest moments and why um so I mean in the beginning the hardest moments were the first six months I was like I said I was undercapitalized I was I had no money my back was against the wall and it was like you know I went to my dad and I said dad you have twenty thousand dollars and he was like you got 40 and he goes I'll give you 40 but this is it you got to make this work

[ 00:38:39 ] and that's not enough that wasn't enough then but that was that was really stressful because the other you know listen I was living at home with my parents and I was you know I probably had debt it did have debt yeah it wasn't good and um so but I didn't have kids I didn't have a family and uh I had really nothing to lose other than going back to corporate America which is was very scary for me So, I just became successful again with hard work and just being obsessed with the business so that was like the first really stressful part um you know and then when you have your first like rough year

[ 00:39:16 ] which is I think around 2009-2010 financially you kind of take a look and you're like what happened how did this happen how did how did the growth stop how did how you know what did I do wrong and you start to question yourself as an owner as a business person you're like I'm ruining a good thing here that's how I remember thinking and I was I was tough on myself during that time and that was about year five is that what you're saying Yeah, around year five was maybe your first plateau, yeah, um, yeah, about that, yep. And that was because I think I wasn't, I didn't have my finger on the pulse, which I've done pretty good you know over the 20-year period, but around then, I just took a break and it wasn't smart; I could have done it a different way um, and then you know, listen, hiring the wrong people um, uh, you know, I think that was probably some of the most stressful,

[ 00:40:11 ] that was the most stressful time period, you know. I, you know, I um, I worked with my brother, and we did not get along, and that was really tough um, and uh, it just, it just didn't work out between us, and uh, um, I regret. Having him work at the company so I think you really have to be careful with hiring family and friends. I did a lot of work with him, but I'm not saying that was the best thing to do, but I quest me so much of that. And that was a mistake. But even though it was a family business, I got a hold of my mom and my dad and, you know, and my wife worked a little bit here. And that was, that was a blast. But I think you really have to be careful with, with who you hire. I made some terrible mistakes with that.

[ 00:40:54 ] And I, you know, we're over it, we move forward, but you look back and you just like, I never want to do that again. So, it's, it's pretty, you know, those are like the three biggest things that stress me out. You know, the quality of the care is always something that I, I worry about, you know, those are the, when you get the call at night, if something went wrong, or client's not happy, you know, there's, there's 99 things we do right. But it's that one complaint that just keeps me up at night, you know, it just like ruins my day. And it's better now, because we're just our customer services, we're right on top of it. And we're not perfect. But I know that everyone's moving forward trying to, you know, fix the problem, or make things better.

[ 00:41:40 ] We have such a great team. And so, I could, I could be less stressed about that. But I can't say when I see that email, it doesn't affect me. So, there's like those everyday stresses, you know, that you worry about and, but we address them. I know we have talked a lot about the pandemic, and maybe people are over it. But I did find it interesting. That you said the pandemic was really hard for you. And it was a really mixed bag for home care. Some people thrived, some people sank, you know, it was pretty diverse. I'm curious to hear just high-level kind of your take on what happened and why it was so challenging for you guys specifically. Yeah. So, for us, we did a lot of at the time, assisted living business.

[ 00:42:22 ] So we would send our caregivers into the assisted livings and, you know, care one on one for, for their residents. Once COVID hit, our caregivers did not want to go to a nursing home or assisted living. And we just couldn't staff the cases. And the facilities had some rules too. They didn't want our aides in there either. So, it was like major lockdown. And we dropped probably $2 million that that first year, which was significant, you know, and it was really scary. And we had a couple of layoffs. And it was just, it was just such a challenging time financially, you know, I, you know, I cut my salary, my mom, like we all just everyone kind of pitched in and we had to make serious cuts and decisions.

[ 00:43:06 ] But I think that really, so financially, it was rough, but that really changed our, our, the way we viewed caregivers. So, I think, you know, recruiting was very tough after that. And once we started committing to treating caregivers like they were our customers, and, you know, once we started focusing on our retention plan, we did that, we created a caregiver appreciation plan. And it just really focused on not just recruiting but keeping caregivers advocating for them. Just being over the top customer service for the caregiver crew. And that that's what we got out of COVID. I think that was the best thing is just like changing our philosophy and how we're treating our caregivers. And I think that's, I think that's how we worked with our caregivers. Yeah, I think, I think that's great.

[ 00:44:02 ] And I'm glad you're sharing some of the silver linings, because I think, for everyone, the pandemic was challenging, even the businesses that did well, it wasn't easy, and they weren't making investments, like you said, but some good things came out of the business for you all. Because of the pandemic, you also mentioned not having a budget pre-pandemic, which is baffling to me, but just tightening up finances, a different philosophy about caregivers, how you approach care, like the pandemic, stretched everyone to like the limits. But oftentimes, when there's that really like uncomfortable rub, that's where we learn and grow and put into place better processes, because we're putting our heads together out of desperation. For real, I, you know, it's stressful, but I do my best when back is against the wall.

[ 00:44:48 ] I really do. I just like it's just something I've always done since a kid. I don't, I feel like I need to have that sometimes happen. I wish I didn't, I wish I didn't need to be motivated. I just wish I had that every day. But when things go bad, you know, when things go bad, you have to make a decision, like what are you going to do? You know, you're going to fold up, because at this point, we can't, I can't, we're too big to fail. If I, if something goes wrong, or I make the bad, a wrong decision, it affects 50 full-time employees, 450 caregivers, a bunch of clients; like, I think about that quite often. So, the decisions that we make year after year, and the strategy that we make are with that in mind.

[ 00:45:27 ] You know, it's; don't want to make a mistake. So, it's tough. I think it's a really interesting line that you're saying, which is that you thrive when your back's against the wall. I think that's; I think that's key to being successful in-home care is you; we talked about putting out fires, and just like the constant stress, the constant unknown, and being able to thrive and make rational good decisions when your back's up against the wall, I think is probably speaks to your success and your abilities. As an owner, we had actually a really good question come in from someone in the audience that I want to ask a couple of minutes ago, you were talking about getting those phone calls or those emails late at night from a client or a caregiver.

[ 00:46:10 ] The question is, how do you deal with those late-night calls? How do you deal with those after-hours calls to make sure you're delivering that white-glove customer experience? Back then? Or now? Well, let's do both. What were you doing initially? And what are you doing now? Back then I was on call seven, seven years in a row, a lot of call outs and for client issues, a lot of Saturday nights and Friday nights, I didn't, I didn't go out, you know, I, you know, and it's okay, my wife and I, you know, girlfriend at the time, and, you know, we were, you know, fine staying at home. And we're kids, you know, we didn't have any money, like, what else can we do besides work? So, but she was always understanding about it.

[ 00:46:48 ] And I just, if a call came in, you know, there were times where it was like, oh my god, you know, it's 11 o'clock at night, and the caregiver hasn't shown up. And what do you do? And you just, you just, you just, you just, you just, you just, you just, you just, you just, you just, your work nonstop until the problem gets solved. You know, you figure it out. It'll get done. So, there's, you know, you panic and then you work, go to work. That's a lot of what that was, you know, for me. And then, and then finally I invested in someone to take over or split it with me. And that was, that was really, really good. Now we have, you know, we have an answering service that connects to 24/7 on-call staffing coordinator and an on-call nurse.

[ 00:47:30 ] And we have an on-call sales rep, and you know, and they handle all of the issues as they come in as needed. And it's busy after hours, it's busy for us. So, it's, you know, it's a full-time job. We have, you know, full-time people working. And we also hired a company called Reverence recently. They do some, you know, every, every other weekend they do on-call for us because, you know, your, your staffing coordinators, like that was the biggest issue with on-call. You get burned out. So, if you keep the same people every weekend on-call, they're not, they're not going to want to do it. You know, or you got to pay a lot of money, but at some time, at some point the money is just not worth the stress.

[ 00:48:12 ] So, you know, we found really good ways to have a rotation and to break it up and outsource it a little bit. And it's, it's, it's gone well. I'm glad you mentioned that. I was going to ask if you had outsourced any of that, because I do, we do see a lot of businesses that hire people to do that but talk about burnout in that role specifically of if you're on call at night or weekends, that's exhausting for anyone. And so, it sounds like maybe in more recent years, you've outsourced some of that. For sure. Awesome. Well, yeah, I think, I think that was really, really helpful. I'm glad you shared the then and now, because I think that's, you know, again, out of desperation early on, someone's got to answer those calls and those emails and it's going to be you.

[ 00:48:51 ] Depends on if you have the money to invest in some help, then I would do it and give yourself a break. But I didn't at the time I had to do it. I know we've just got a few more minutes here. I want to bring back the 'You' are being a franchise. I think that it has played a large role in your business and your philosophy and your processes. Talk about just the evolution of being a franchisee. What were some of the benefits? Maybe what are, maybe some of the cons, if you're willing to share transparently, just, you know, your, your mindset around being a franchise through the years? Yeah, I think, you know, HomeWell is a great franchise. They're not perfect like everybody else.

[ 00:49:35 ] And I've seen them evolve so differently, you know, from 20 plus years ago to today. And their leadership team, I would say they're really truly, even though they were doing business 20 years ago, they're, they're only like a five-year company, five-year-old company. They've really changed. They've changed incredibly throughout this, you know, this tenure. And what I, you know, what I always needed in the beginning was I need a lot of support. I need a lot of coaching. I, I think one of the biggest reasons for the turnaround in the first six months is the owner. He's, he's, he's not the majority owner anymore, but he, Joshua Hoffman called me up and he was like, 'What are you doing?' And I was, you know, not getting out there as much in the sales, I was doing some online advertising.

[ 00:50:23 ] I wasn't following his system and he coached me through that. And it's a huge reason why we got through that time period. So, I think that was, you know, sometimes you look back and like, would you do this again? You know, paying all those royalties. And I think, I always think I would because of that moment, because if it wasn't for Joshua Hoffman coaching me through that, who would it have been? It would have been my dad telling me, you're going to make business or get out, you're done. And, you know, that wasn't great. So, so that was a big help. And, you know, over the years, you know, they support you in a variety of different ways.

[ 00:51:03 ] And it's tough now because I'm doing this so long, so I don't need as much help from them, but there are times where you reach out and there is some value there. I don't think you're, as you grow, I don't think you're ever going to be totally happy with royalty fees. Like you're not going to get the equivalent support in the royalty fees you're, you're, you're, you're paying. It's just the way it is. But it's kind of what you signed up for. So, you have to make a decision to kind of, you know, come to terms with that, which I, which I have. And, you know, I think as far as the cons go, I don't know if I have too many, but there's, you know, there's, I think what some owners, franchise owners do is they, they rely too much on.

[ 00:51:51 ] The franchise or the franchise business coach to like to drive your business or tell you what to do. And I think, you know, you have to make a decision like this business isn't about the franchise. It's about you, the owner and your team and the direction you're going to take the company. And they're just kind of along for the ride, supporting you, right, you know, riding right behind you. So, I think that there's a, you know, there's an expectation sometimes of franchise systems that's going to be a little bit too high. That's just my opinion though. I think we'll have other HomeWell franchisees listening to this. And I want to just share that they benefit from you and your success and your experience.

[ 00:52:33 ] I know you've mentioned to me several times that some of these new owners and operators come out, you know, and shadow your office and your operation. And so, I think there's this other piece of being in a franchise system, which is learning and networking with your peers. You learn and grow from the franchisor, the corporate team, but also, you're surrounded by a bunch of other owners, operators that are going through pretty similar challenges and struggles. And you can also lean on them and use them as kind of a built-in community. And you are one of the larger franchisees. So, a lot of the other owners, operators get to learn from you. But I think there's also probably benefit for you to have kind of a built-in network or community of other owners and operators that you can talk to or, you know, call up.

[ 00:53:15 ] Yeah, and I think one of the like misconceptions is like, oh, we'll lose, you know, we've got this this big company, you know, he knows what he's doing. And I, I; there's things I've taken away from, you know, you see something on LinkedIn, or you see, you know, you have a conversation with an owner and you're like, 'We need to do that.' That's great. That's different. And we've adapted those things. So, I have learned quite a bit from, you know, franchisees throughout the year. I didn't have that when I first started; I was the seventh franchisee. So, it's, it's nice to be able to talk to people and just kind of share your, your war stories and strategies and learn different things.

[ 00:53:52 ] I want to talk just briefly a little bit more about your personal journey through all of this. Burnout is very real in this industry. And you talked about kind of that first plateau at five years. Here we are 20 years in, I'm sure there have been times when you have felt, you know, deep burnout. What has been your method for self-care, prioritizing yourself, taking time off? How have you, how have you worked that in and why does that matter at every stage? I probably didn't take a whole lot of time off until like the last, until COVID came, you know, I think I was, I was definitely, you know, it took me a few years to really like get back to being like right-minded, being focused.

[ 00:54:46 ] I took time off over the last few years, you know, just not, not, you know, I just let other people, you know, run the company. I thought, you know, there were times where I thought like, you know what, I'm not good at this business. Like I'm, I'm not good enough. And I, you know, and I got to let other people do this. And I've, I've learned in the last year that's just not the case. And I can still contribute. So, but that, you know, that, you know, when you look at yourself and you start thinking like negatively, it's a problem, you know, it's a problem and you need to, you know, just get like back on the horse. Um, so, you know, how do I deal with it?

[ 00:55:22 ] I mean, I, I have a good life. I do. Um, uh, I'm working a lot right now, but there are times where I'm like, 'What am I doing today?' I have nothing to do because I have such a great team and, you know, and how do I, how do I get to enjoy my life a little bit? It's, you know, again, if it wasn't for Laura changing our practices, um, I, I, I don't know where I would be now. I don't think I'd be having as much fun. I get time off. I get to spend more time with my family. I get to spend more time with my family. I get to spend more time with my family. I have young kids. So that's really important to me is to go, you know, I like to be there after school for them and, you know, just be around them.

[ 00:55:56 ] And I get that. I have that opportunity to kind of live whichever, however life I would like to live, um, because of my team, because I put the right people in place. And I think that is the big difference between, you know, what, you know, being burned out and stressed about where the business is going and who I'm working with and the team around me versus now I have such a trust, um, for, for Laura and, and her, her leadership team. It's just, uh, I'm very lucky. I really am. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think there's just a really good message there of you as an owner, your role changes. And at some point, in time, you may feel like you're getting in the way or you're not best suited to certain tasks or processes.

[ 00:56:41 ] And that's where you can, you know, step back, let other people lead, let other people thrive, let other people make mistakes so that they can learn and become, and I think, uh, you know, 20 years in the last couple of years, you, you personally have identified where you fit and are figuring out where you fit and where you thrive and where other people lead and thrive. And I think that's, that's the nature of this business at some point, not that the business has outgrown you, but you just, your role and your place in it looks differently. Yeah, it's, it's a good point. And, you know, it has outgrown me a little bit. My weight, my style is old school and it's, it's not, people don't respond to that anymore.

[ 00:57:18 ] So, I've changed. I've done a really nice job at adapting. Um, it's just, you know, it's, it's a tough thing for your ego, you know, it's just like to, to put it aside and, and let people, um, you know, do their job is, is a very good move. Uh, not the easiest thing. Um, and I probably pulled away too much, you know, just cause I was like, ah, you know, I'm bothering them or whatever. And I just did it, you know, I went one extreme or the other, you know, so now I'm kind of figuring out the middle ground and, um, uh, I'm enjoying it. Hmm. I want to end asking you what your hope is for the future.

[ 00:57:58 ] You mentioned, you know, today you're right around that 20 million mark, which is a huge accomplishment as a business, but you still have this hunger and this drive for more, and you have this incredible team that's capable and you really think you can continue to grow. What, what excites you about the future for your business and for home care in general? I think, I mean, the growth is always something I'm interested in. And I think, you know, we want to open new territories and there's new lines of services that, um, we're starting to work on that are very exciting. Um, I think, you know, as far as the industry, I mean, the industry is just going to go up. It's going to get, you know, not going to get any easier.

[ 00:58:38 ] Um, there'll be a lot of people that need help, but I think, you know, the industry in general over the next five or 10 years, we'll really have to adapt to the hospital-at-home system. Uh, we've got to find our role in there. Um, I think tech is vital. It's going to be crucial to support our growth and, and home care in general. There are some really incredible things out there. Of course, we're working with you guys to, you know, figure that out. And that just kind of, it just seems like a nice marriage between home care and technology to, to really focus on quality work. Um, you know, and I think what I like to see is, you know, what kind of when we get to do more for our caregivers.

[ 00:59:20 ] So whether it's like insurance and benefits and more PTO or just more recognition and more feel-good stories, like, I don't know, I like to see that stuff. I'm still a softie when it comes to that. So, for all those bad emails that we get, when you get that one compliment, you're like, 'Oh man, this is why we do this.' Uh, it feels good. So, I, you know, as long as that continues, I'll be happy. Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing, Lou. This has been such a pleasure. You've been really candid today. Um, I keep thinking it feels like you and I are just having this conversation and we are, but I think, you know, this speaks to you as an owner, you know, you weren't hiding anything today.

[ 00:59:58 ] You didn't really, we had an agenda, but you didn't have any other agendas. It was just, we had a really real, honest, open conversation. And I think that sums up you and your success partially is just being a real, honest human being working hard, hiring, and firing and learning and growing. That's, that's what's made you successful. I think we've illustrated that today. So, thanks for being here. This has been such a fun, fun session for me. And I hope it has been for you. You're so welcome. I had a great time. Thank you so much. Awesome. Well, we'll wrap here. Like I mentioned earlier on in the episode, I'm going to bring their director of sales on next week, and we're going to talk all things sales and a sales organization at scale. So, I hope everyone will join us same day, same time next week, and we'll continue, continue this series. So, thanks Lou. And thanks everyone for being here. Welcome. Thank you. All right. Take care.