Lessons From a Multi-Million Dollar Home Care Marketer Turned Owner

Connect with Wayne Morgan on LinkedIn

Amada Senior Care in Central NJ

Listen directly on Spotify or Apple Podcasts

Home Care Referral Marketing FAQ

What is the biggest misconception about successful home care referral marketing?

Many agencies believe that simply having a large network of referral sources guarantees business. While relationships are crucial, maintaining them is equally important. This requires understanding the referral partner's needs, pain points, and internal processes. It also involves demonstrating how your agency can help them achieve their goals and improve patient outcomes.

Should agencies focus on building relationships with a large number of referral sources or developing deep relationships with a select few?

While initial outreach might involve a broader approach, focusing on quality over quantity is generally more effective. This "sniper" approach involves identifying key referral partners, understanding their needs in-depth, and tailoring your message accordingly. Building strong relationships with a smaller group can lead to more consistent referrals and a deeper understanding of their processes.

How can home care agencies effectively approach and build relationships with large hospital systems?

Building trust and credibility with hospitals takes time and persistence. Start by leveraging relationships with existing partners like home health and hospice providers who already work with the hospital. Demonstrating your value by providing exceptional service to shared clients, even during hospital readmissions, can help build a positive reputation and open doors to case management.

What are some effective strategies for engaging with hospital case managers once an initial meeting is secured?

Recognize that case managers are busy professionals. Be prepared, concise, and focus on how your agency can address their specific needs. Tailor your message to their department's focus and highlight your agency's strengths in those areas. Emphasize clear communication channels and provide regular updates on referred patients.

How can home care agencies address the communication gap often experienced by skilled nursing facilities (SNFs) regarding referral status?

Implement clear communication protocols involving email confirmations, follow-up calls, and in-person visits. Document all interactions and share relevant care plan information with the SNF team. Building relationships with various department heads beyond the social worker can ensure continuity even with staff turnover.

What are the most common challenges faced by skilled nursing facilities that home care agencies should be prepared to address?

SNFs often struggle with:

• Lack of communication: Uncertainty about what happens to patients after referral.
• High patient acuity: Managing increasingly complex care needs.
• Shortened length of stay: Pressure to discharge patients quickly, impacting care planning.

By understanding these challenges, agencies can position themselves as valuable partners who provide solutions and support.

What key factors should home care agencies consider when developing referral partnerships with assisted living communities?

Understand the community's specific business model, care capabilities, and resident demographics. Identify their pain points and tailor your message to address those needs. Focus on how your agency can complement their existing services, whether by providing supplemental care, facilitating smooth transitions for new residents, or supporting residents aging in place.

When hiring a sales and marketing professional, what qualities are most important for success in home care?

Beyond experience, prioritize authenticity, compassion, drive, and the ability to connect with people. Look for candidates who are resilient, open to feedback, and passionate about serving seniors. Assess their ability to build rapport and communicate effectively by interviewing them from the perspective of a referral partner.

[ 00:04:24 ] Welcome to Home Care U. I hope everyone is having a great week and I hope everyone is continuing to enjoy this show. Quick update for those of you that are new to the show or returning after a little bit—we've got the episode transcripts up on our website at careswitch.com/homecareu. So, I know a lot of people are taking notes during these episodes, but we've made it a little bit easier for you and we now have the transcripts on our website where you can grab them, control, find, search them, reread parts of the episode, so just want to make sure that everyone's aware that we've got the transcripts up on our website and While you're there, you can also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, Campus Times, which is an educational extension of the podcast that gets emailed out to our subscribers at the end of the month.

[ 00:05:13 ] So, hit subscribe on our website as well, again, that's careswitch.com/homecareu. So, without further ado, let's get into today's session. Today I'm joined by the one and only Wayne Morgan. He's the owner of Amada Senior Care in Central New Jersey. Wayne, I know you're a big fan of the show and I'm excited to talk to you today. Thanks for being here, I appreciate it. Thank you so much, this is uh this is great, so I'm ready to talk. Let's get going, I know you're uh, you're so much of a super fan that you bought a microphone to record this episode which I love, so shout out to you and future guests having the right mic is a plus, so uh, let's get into your background again.

[ 00:05:51 ] You might be uh kind of an up-and-coming name and face in the industry but you're a big fan of the industry and so I want to give you a couple of minutes to introduce yourself, talk about your background, and especially your history as it pertains to referral marketing and sales and your success in that. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. So um, so like you said, I'm the owner of Amada Senior Care in Central New Jersey, our office is located in Princeton, New Jersey which is in Mercer County. Uh, Amanda Senior Care is a national franchise, very part, very proud to be part of the franchise, amazing system, um, amazing support by them, but you know, a little bit more about myself, I've been in hospitality since I've been growing up.

[ 00:06:28 ] I grew up in a restaurant setting, um, my mother was a waitress, so she brought me to work so at a young age, I was used to talking to strangers, kind of providing customer service, hospitality, learning new skills, traits, um, you know, through my years, I got involved with you know, studying psychology, helping children. In the juvenile justice system, really that was really kind of what set my success, I guess. For sales and marketing with senior care was or aging adults care is my objective. Was to create like plan of care for children and keep them rehabilitated, keep them in the community, reduce their length of stay in detention centers, and really put them on a road for success the best we can do.

[ 00:07:05 ] And I was involved with conversations and involved with stakeholders so it was an amazing job, amazing mentors, leaders, um you know I worked for a family division part of the courthouse, family environment, restaurants, I worked with uh where family-owned so I was kind of in that culture growing up um my family is very close with one another so like I like being I like families that mentor me and I like being disciplined so it really carried through my career and um I was really lucky in 2016 2017 I was doing a little real estate on the side and I was looped on a group chat with a you know my previous my first

[ 00:07:39 ] home care owner's dad and you know an attorney hey call this gentleman's home your background you know this job is a great opportunity for you it's basically your resume in one role so I joined a very well-known established home care agency in new jersey since uh I believe the beginning of 2016 and I’ve been working for a 17 to uh 2021 uh my role was to do marketing sales business development family-owned business amazing team um did very well I mean my first six months I was kind of stuck as most marketers are we kind of being rejected and being told no we're in our car we're like what is this and what's going on I can't talk to no one so it was a humbling experience for me uh just because of my previous roles like I was in you know high level conversations with people and I was able to

[ 00:08:24 ] meet people and I was able to meet people and I was able to meet people and I was able to meet people, so you Know just by engaging with my team, there leaning on my support in that agency and really kind of finding different tools and niches within the business locally within North New Jersey. Um, I had the opportunity to do about one million dollars new business my first year so actually for six months. Um, as I continued to understand the processes, the operations, really buy into the concept of the agency and really what was happening behind the scenes, and kind of... and I'll dive more into it like data and KPIs and you

[ 00:08:52 ] know, not just I hate saying it, but really what was happening behind the scenes and Really, what was happening behind the scenes bringing donuts and with a little smile on my face, you know I was doing about for the five years there, probably about 1.8 to 2 million dollars new business uh a year and I evolved into a regional role and um one day I woke up and said, you know what I would love to kind of see what else is out there, there was nothing wrong, there wasn't like I just, I felt like you know sometimes those individuals take a year off before they go to college or they take a year off before they go to school, I just, I just something in me so I joined another company for about eight months to a year and it was you know Private equity-backed, and it was corporate, and it was bigger.

[ 00:09:30 ] You know the original owner started with his grandmother, and he's been in business for 20 years, so I got drawn to that. Um, and you know they're a good company. It was just, you know, I was reporting to like five different people; they were kind of plotting me across the country. My job role wasn't what I signed up for. Um, my money was touched, you know, so I, you know, I needed that year to kind of in a way kind of reinvent myself. But also, within that year, my focus was to really just make it work, and I was like, you know, I'm going to do this; I'm going to do this; I'm going to make the sales.

[ 00:09:55 ] People I was working with and training like the best versions of themselves as professionals and people, and as I was doing that, I didn't really realize how much I actually knew from my previous job. I looked like wow; I was actually listening during those meetings; I was actually studying. And although I didn't talk as much, and I would be told, 'You need to speak more,' um, I kind of just said, 'You know what? I think I'm ready.' At first, I was going to do some senior advising consulting and I was always partners and referral partners with the owner of Amada Senior Care of Bergen County and Pasadena County, New Jersey. And one day He said, 'Hey, me and my dad. We want to expand into Mercer County.

[ 00:10:30 ] You know it's a little bit away from where you reside, but we would love to bring you in as a partner. So, you know of course had to speak to my wife, had to speak to my family, but I just... you know that moment just came across my desk and I took advantage of it and uh, we've been open for about a little over a year so uh, the first few months is figuring out you know processes, policies, operational, um KPI tracking, recruitment you're really figuring everything out. But there's no branding on the marketing side or even recruitment side so I count the first year as January 1st of this.' Year so, we're uh within our first full year, we're trying to do anywhere between uh 1 to 1.2 million new business, so things are great, awesome, what an incredible background and what an incredible run-in sales um that's really what we're going to dive into today, which is your success, the strategies, the tactics behind really strong solid referral marketing.

[ 00:11:23 ] And for you mentioned a couple times, you're still in the New Jersey market, it is a very competitive landscape just if you would like to ballpark the numbers do you have any idea, you know in your market about how many home care agencies, how many potential referral partners? We're talking here again, just like Ballpark um home care agencies probably a few hundred um and then referral partners well into the thousand’s um new jersey's congested so um yeah, a few hundred home few thousand referral partners yeah big market competitive landscape so I want to first ask about common misconceptions you know what are some of the common misconceptions that a lot of agencies have when it comes to

[ 00:12:05 ] successful referral marketing particularly those even at larger agencies, you work for several large home care brands and so you've seen you know what it looks like at a small scale what it looks At a large scale, what are some of the common misconceptions that you've seen most commonly um well within my market but you know it could be different between all different markets but one of the misconceptions I feel like you know many agencies have when it comes to successful marketing is honestly a lot of people think 'Hey, you have relationships, that's going to equal business.' Now, as a salesperson and marketer, those who are listening, you're like 'But wait, that's the key to sales. Established relationships, true yes you need to do that, but once you gain a relationship, you're actually losing it literally.' The same day you gain it, so for me, I think it's important to me, and the way I would train is yes, we need to establish relationships, but one, how are we going to maintain that relationship?

[ 00:13:03 ] Right, how are we going to understand our referral partners the best we can from their pain points to their challenges to their pros, to their processes, to the way they operate, to the way they um take in a referral, to the way they discharge to their partners down the community, but also as a marketer and sales representative, to maintain a relationship, and especially when you're selling, you know there's a level of compassion and pride, and you know Enthusiasm you need in terms of the company you represent and the product that you offer, which is home health aides is nursing customer service, you're providing a service; you know. Home care is now more of a hospitality business than more than anything else, so it's really important.

[ 00:13:47 ] And this is what kind of leveraged me into my market and got me to my numbers when I was you know going through my home care journey. Was outside of maintaining a relationship, I had to really understand what happened behind the scenes within my business. And the one thing I was always told is: you know there's always going to be tension between sales and ops and that's what I was feeling within the first six months was I’m going to just sell and be robotic and you know just read everything off for sure and show up with you know Dunkin donuts now that's good and that can create conversations but one I had to try to understand what was going on and what was going on and what was going on and

[ 00:14:24 ] what was going on and I was like you know I’m going to just sell and be robotic and you know just read everything off for sure because I say at four o'clock on a Friday I get a discharge from a hospital I’m setting everything up but I need to make sure I’m setting very clear expectations I need to understand the logistics of what it looks like when a client signs on service is on service to even if they want to discontinue service um but I also need to be mindful of my back-end operation and also need to be mindful that like they're the ones actually doing the work right I’m not a home health aide I’m not a registered nurse doing a you know an initial assessment I’m not a scheduler you know so

[ 00:14:54 ] for me you know maintaining a relationship was for me to present more the logistics and the experience of a client or one of their patients on our service to my referral sources and then also obtain everything I can know About them bringing it back to my office and saying, 'Hey, I have this skilled nursing facility. You know they're advising me that 80% of their admissions are congested heart failure. What do we do really well with congested heart failure? What can I go back to them with? You know, so can we offer additional skill training to our caregivers? Do we track any KPIs? You know, are we tracking falls or... why do we need to track their weight every day? So, I got really invested with my nursing team.

[ 00:15:37 ] Um, I sat in on staffing departments watching them staff clients. I sat through orientation, so it wasn't for me to know everything, but it was. Really, for me, one way I'd maintained the relationship was there's only so much I could sell. I need a I need to understand really what the pain points are in my referral source, but I need to really paint a really good clear picture of them. Trust my operation, but also, I knew that my operation and my team were providing a really good service, so I feel the one misconception is like, hey, let's hire this person because they have a thousand relationships, but then one of the biggest challenges I wouldn't even call it a mistake; it's more of a challenge because these are fixable things, right?

[ 00:16:17 ] There's always room for improvement, no matter. what your success is with this business is especially if they're at a large scale and they're not going to be able to do it they're going to be able to do it in a larger scale of a business is you have all these relationships go out and sell the end of the day it's okay but what do we do internally how's our operation work everyone works differently so I think it's more just sell and go get a referral and then there's micromanagement behind it well you have all these relationships how come you're not getting business and for me I think one of the biggest challenges at a larger scale agency is the lack of education and training Right, so one always goes back to the one-on-ones, understand the concept of what makes a good marketer a good salesman, but also what makes you really good at a home care agency.

[ 00:17:01 ] So I'll never forget, I went to my previous director of nursing who's the CEO of the company now. I said, 'Why are we good? Like, I'm out there talking about this; what does that even mean? Like, I don't know what do I say now? I was running out of things to say; I was running out of tchotchkes to bring. I was like, 'I can I shadow your nursing team,' or 'can I see a care plan?' Like, I don't know what I don't know, I don't know what I don't know, I don't know what I don't know. What we're doing is like, I know we provide home health aides. Like, can I meet some of these home health aides?

[ 00:17:28 ] Like, I need to be completely passionate about this, and can we start tracking some numbers so this data actually is factual um, so I really got to know my partners the best I could. But I think the training and education is extremely important, regardless. And you know, within Princeton, we're looking for a new marketer right, and I don't care if you have 20 years’ experience or no experience at all you're going to go through the one-on-ones and the training and everything that we do here, regardless. You might have relationships, but it doesn't mean you know, you're going to do a ride-along in my car for a week and then I'm going to cut you lose. I think it's really understanding the business you're working with the people you're working with the processes we have in place; you investing in that, and then also creating your own niche you know what are your strengths out there?

[ 00:18:08 ] And you know, I think it's more like then how can that agency support you as you're out marketing, because it's a very strenuous job, it's tedious, it's demanding. And I think, you know, the lack of the challenges really is the education piece. I feel like when people think you just have relationships you're just going to go out and generate business but it's more today you have to maintain it and there's many different ways you have to mean like on how you can maintain it so I that's the answer to your question yeah I you earlier in your response you use the word tension between sales and operations and I think that's really interesting and I think that's what you were getting into is these businesses at scale there's this this tension or this like friction between sales and operations and like you just spelled out it's the lack of

[ 00:18:54 ] expectations and the lack of education and so to be cohesive and to be successful you really have to have both parts of that and both parties need to be educated about one and the other and I think that's probably what attributes to your success is you like you said you were so close with the nursing teams you were you know figuring out care plans and talking about schedules and really like diving into the services the specialties the diagnoses of these clients so you could go out and sell that more you know effectively so I think I think that was a great response and I think that's will resonate especially with large operations where

[ 00:19:29 ] they may feel that disconnect between sales and operations you really can't have a one without the other or have the success of both without one another yeah you nailed that I mean look you can't operate with a sale and you can't sell without an operation so like you said like my biggest flaws was I was sending new clients to my team but I wasn't setting clear their service failures right when their service failures those clients those families are going back to my referral sources saying I’m not getting what I was promised I’m not getting this good experience why would that you know you can have a relationship with this person you could break bread with them And watch college football with them on Saturdays, but they have to protect themselves: their job, their team, their businesses.

[ 00:20:15 ] So, you can have relationships, but it doesn't always mean that you're going to get business. Once I started understanding like how would my... what information would my internal team need and what's going to make this super successful on providing a very good service and experience for my client and also caregiver? So, I started thinking caregivers from parking to pets to smoking to who's helping Mom and Dad when our caregiver is not there. To be honest, this is literally what's going to happen, you're Going to get a call from X, Y, and Z like I painted a picture, but I also was trying to explain to him: 'like this is our option A, but we need to talk about option B, C, and D because this could happen when you're on service.' So, my objective is: if it goes to my team, nursing knows everything; they got every detail, everything's clear-cut, and staffing has all the answers.

[ 00:21:05 ] Because when that caregiver is being called by staffing, our caregivers they ask all the questions, and last thing I want is any of my internal team members to feel like a deer in headlights. So, the more I can do that on the front end, the better service we're going to provide. And also, you know, you're getting better caregiver retention; you're getting better length of stay with your clients, caregivers, and then all that good feedback goes back to your referral source, and that's how you maintain your relationships that's how you could, you know, continue to strengthen them. And you know, you go to the Home Care Pulse surveys like, I think it was, what 33 percent of home care providers want to increase and strengthen the relationships for this upcoming year; this is this is one piece of the pulse on how you do it when we talk about sales um, we often use the word 'like' volume.

[ 00:21:50 ] you know like sales is a volume game and you mentioned you know the there's thousands of referral partners in your market alone I’m curious to hear your take on um like volume versus quality like deep not wide you talked about you know do you hire someone that has a bunch of pre-existing relationships and that will set them up for success not necessarily but for you is your preference like depth you know with a handful of really good partners and going as deep as possible and getting a lot of referrals or do you have to cast a wide net to get enough of that and then you know you're going to have to do a lot of different things For referrals, um, is that making sense you know? Deeper deep versus wide, yeah.

[ 00:22:29 ] So one of the first things that was ever taught is the difference between a shotgun approach and a sniper approach. And um, I started at a shotgun approach; I was like, 'Alright, let me just see what sticks.' And I'm brochuring half the time, showing up at doctor's offices. Um, but you know what? There's an in-between type of concept because you do need to start at a larger scale, but no don't stretch yourself out too thin. But with the right education and training, so everything I have, so I have like a whole bunch of kind-of-three-right things which is something. That I will always talk to um, which is something that comes up in my weekly five to med jet.

[ 00:23:00 ] I'll be reviewing in the second week maybe four or five years and then yeah, I just like I will start off building from there but I also if I just like I want to get the feel-show process. I'm going to start off with like coming up with practices that then has to go from that a-be to like putting player parts and I'm going to stop exactly in there you know before I get from that dale there's putting player, you know, putting notes and some of that I'll do it that film and stuff and then it's been hard to sort of come up with the key reach I had a much. Larger account list when I first started, but now it's much shorter because I was able to identify who works with who, who specializes with what, who can I partner with, or if a client of mine needs rehab or senior living,

[ 00:23:36 ] you know, if they live in senior living and they fall, you know, which skilled nursing facility does that senior living community work with? My objective now is how do I become part of a conversation, whether anyone goes through the acute care, which is the hospital, through rehab, through senior living or back home or through home health and hospice, how do I become part of every conversation? And so, I always recommend going through a sniper approach, and then eventually building off of that. And we could dive into it more like, you know, building out account lists and ways to market to specific referral sources. Yeah, let's go down that path. You know, you stepped into the role of owner. And you had to build your own strategy essentially from scratch based off all your prior experience.

[ 00:24:20 ] So, yeah, how did you start that process a year ago? How did you choose those initial target partners and how did you start to plan and approach and set your team up for success in those early days? Yeah, so what I actually first did was I just drove to Princeton just because. Just to be familiar with like the roads and the demographics, even on recruitment, you know, when you're just doing sales, you're selling, right? But when you own and you're building up an operation, you're selling, it's a completely different beast of what you're doing. But most importantly, I went to one-on-ones and, you know, a few people prior to me on the podcast have referenced it. So, I got to give them kudos, is I'm a big fan of Medicare.gov.

[ 00:25:01 ] And for me, you know, I go to Medicare.gov. I search for providers, and I start with the hospitals. And, you know, on Medicare.gov, it'll give you a map and give you little pins on exactly where everything's located. Okay. I kind of establish like little hubs, like little areas of, okay, one, if I'm marketing, how am I going to reduce the most windshield time? But then two, what hospitals in my area, what health systems are they part of? And then from there, I say, okay, I got two, three hospitals. Now I'm going to look up skilled nursing facilities. And there's a ton, right? There's a ton of rehabs, whether it's acute, subacute. And I'm really looking for anything from three stars or above. You know, obviously three stars is great.

[ 00:25:40 ] And there’s nothing wrong with anything less because there’s a lot of facilities. I’ve known over the last year, they’ve been one-star. Now they’re four-star. But for me, it's like, okay, let’s look more into like the four- and five-star skilled nursing facilities. Let’s see, you know, how many beds they have, what they specialize in. Let’s look at their, you know, short-term measurements, right? Their short-term stay measurements. But also let’s see if they’re part of those healthcare systems, the hospitals. And then from there, I’m looking at senior living communities, which is not always through Medicare.gov. You know, a little Google. And I kind of just started heat mapping my referral sources, essentially. And then I looked up home health through Medicare.gov. And I said, okay, well, this hospital has their own home health and hospice.

[ 00:26:20 ] I'm going to add it to the list. This, you know, private home health is in these referral sources. So, I started heat mapping and started kind of building about 40 to 50 referral sources between skilled nursing facilities, rehabs, hospitals, senior living communities, independent living communities, CCRCs. And then I said, you know what? Let me look up, you know, some elder law attorneys and financial advisors. And physicians. So, once I built my list, I was just boots on the ground. And I went back to the one-on-ones, which is crazy because I was like, oh, man, I got to do this all over again. I got to meet new people. I felt like a transfer student. I was all tight. And I was just like, in a way, I was nervous.

[ 00:26:59 ] But it was kind of good to be nervous because I felt like, you know, if I'm nervous, I'm prepared. So, you network, right? You reach out to people on LinkedIn. You go to referral sources. You ask what events are in the area. So, I started networking. And I started connecting the dots on who works with who. And then from there, it was really, you know, I can get into it, identifying who the key players are in each referral source and building a process per referral source. And then I established a cadence. Do I come here weekly? Do I come here biweekly? Is this, you know, the right referral source for me? And, you know, we look at that monthly, quarterly, and annually in terms of, like, who's the right referral source for us.

[ 00:27:38 ] But it was just pulling up data online, boots on the ground. Networking, asking questions, staying consistent. So, you know, consistency in communication is extremely important. But that's really kind of how I got off the ground running with Princeton. Awesome. Let's get into the how-tos, starting with the hospital systems. You said that hospitals are, like, maybe your bread and butter, and like where you started. They're also maybe the most intimidating. They're really large operations. They have massive staff. You know, there's a lot of people to talk to. So, let's approach it as, you know, you walk in there for the first time. Who are you looking for? What's your approach? And then what message are you leaving with them? And then, you know, what's the follow-up with the hospital system?

[ 00:28:20 ] Yeah, so when I walk in, I actually kind of just sit down and watch the lobby for five minutes and process, like, yeah, there's no shot I'm getting in here. Or maybe there are four other home care agencies before me that got rejected. Let me just wait my turn. But I think it's more, you know, one, it took me years to obtain a hospital relationship. So just to kind of put it out there, like, it's going to take a while. It's going to take time for whoever's listening. Like, hospitals take time, and it takes hard work, like, really hard work. Because most of these healthcare systems, they might have their own home care, right? But in New Jersey specifically, like, they're no joke. Like, they're very serious with who they refer.

[ 00:28:57 ] And there's hundreds of vendors, like I said. So why you, right? Honestly, I'm going to backtrack a little bit. So, if I'm going to the hospital the first time, I'm just going in just to get a feel for the lobby. I know I'm going to be told no, I know. Like, I don't even walk in with brochures. First off, like, for me, too much. It's too aggressive. Just walk in and say, 'I'm Wayne.' I'm with Amada Senior Care. I'm looking for case management. You might get lucky, right? So, for me, it's just gotten a feel of everything. And then from there, like, I really look at, like, the flow of it. Like, I'm very observant. You have to be observant.

[ 00:29:35 ] And you have to kind of, in a way, like, as you're marketing and selling, you have to, like, listen more and talk less. So, kind of know, like, your surroundings. And say, like, hey, I'm going to go on Wednesday. That woman was really nice at the front desk. I'm going to go again next Wednesday. She was nice, right? Because maybe she lets you go that third, fourth, fifth time. But you also have to be mindful. Like, yes, it's very busy. Yes, these are very big. But it's fine. You know, everyone is doing their job. You just got to be yourself and be professional. But to backtrack, how do you get into a hospital? I'm referring to my community partners for that. Now, that's like the golden ticket.

[ 00:30:08 ] I can't meet somebody for the first time and say, 'oh, thanks so much for that coffee.' Can you get me in this hospital, by the way? You have to really establish a really good relationship with these individuals. So, with that said, if I'm working with a hospital, and I just did a presentation for a hospital hospice division. So, they're part of a big healthcare system down here. And I presented the hospice. And we're helping a few of their patients. And we're doing a good job. And they’re trusting us, and vice versa. And, you know, now it’s, you know, they said, hey, how are you with case management at this hospital? So that's for me to be ready. And, you know, take advantage of that. But you got to utilize your partners, right?

[ 00:30:45 ] Your community partners who are in these hospitals every day. So essentially, it’s your home health and your hospice partners. You got to really kind of factor in, like, hey, on Medicare.gov, there's numbers in terms of, you know, how many patients they're discharging. There are multiple sites that will disclose how many people they're discharging per year, how many admissions they're getting per year. You got to do the research. You got to work hard. Like, I hate saying it. It's not a nine-to-five job. Like, you put the time in, and whatever luck falls your way, you'll be prepared for that, and you'll be successful. So. I would lean on my home health hospice providers in terms of, like, hey, you're getting referred every day for home health.

[ 00:31:16 ] Like, one, how can I help you in terms of a home health agency provide a safer discharge for your patients coming out of the hospital? And then, secondly, like, how can we market together our businesses and go back to case management in terms of why your patients and our clients aren't falling? You know, could we combine our readmission percentages together? Like, when you refer X home health and a modest senior care, this is what you get: case management. And how often do you maybe do an in-service there? How close are you with the team? Could I maybe help you sponsor an event for the case management team out after, you know, work? Could we co-sponsor an in-service, you know, for this hospital?

[ 00:31:52 ] So, I really utilize the home health hospice partners, even skilled nursing facilities who are, like, the liaisons that are kind of facilitating the referrals for rehab. But for me, like, I generally don't walk into a hospital the first time without having any relationships. And if I do, it's really just to kind of get a feel for it because they are huge. They're big. But I keep going just so, one, it increases. It increases my comfort there. But then as I'm doing that, as I keep getting denied, which could be weeks, months, and years, I'm establishing my relationships that have the relationships in these hospitals. But they're also being discharged every single day. So, how can I better the experiences of your discharges coming to your business?

[ 00:32:28 ] And then what can we do as a partner to come back to the hospital? Because data, hospitals want to know. Outcomes, that's what they want to know. And they want to know that you're not just a random company down the street. Because they're putting. They're putting their patient's hands into your business. And we're primarily private pay. And, you know, we specialize with long-term care insurance. But that is a huge decision. But that case manager also is discharging eight but admitting 15. So, you have to understand the flow and the process, again, of your business, the logistics, and setting people up for success. So, I lean on my community of partners to get into the hospitals. And I never say this out in the public. But since I'm a big fan of your podcast.

[ 00:33:10 ] You know. The best thing you want is a client of yours to go to a hospital. And you want everything to be okay. Which, of course, is what we want to do. But we also want to provide that family a lot of support. But ultimately, that's a way in, right? So, if you could be yourself and you provide a good service. And you're authentic. And you're providing a customer service. And you're actually going there to visit your client to provide a safer transition back home. Or wherever they need to go. Excuse me. Where they need to go. Then that case manager, that social worker, they're going to be like, 'Wow, this company is actually in it.' They're compassionate. They're not just knocking on my door because they're clients down the hallway after having a stroke.

[ 00:33:47 ] So, for me, I got into hospitals by providing a really, really good customer service follow-up when they went to the hospital. And then when I had the opportunity to speak to case management, I was just asking questions. Telling them, you know, how long they've been on service. The hours they're on service for. What do they recommend? And then from there, I was kind of, in a way, like working with my partners. Hey, they're talking about rehab. They're going to call you. So, that allowed me to refer my partners, too. Which established relationships. So, the more I was able to connect my community partners to my clients at the hospital, they're saying, hey, Wayne's helping us. He's referring us people. He's getting us involved. You know what?

[ 00:34:21 ] I think it's, yeah, I'll introduce you to case management now. So, I had to build up like a kind of like a resume. Kind of, I needed like kudo points, you know? So. I love the transparency there. Obviously, in home care, we're trying to reduce readmissions. But we all know they’re inevitable. And like you said, it’s a way to build. Trust and credibility right there in the hospital as you support your client into that readmission. I want to take this, the next step further. So, like you're saying, it’s really difficult to get that initial meeting with the case manager. And it takes months. It takes a lot of relationships. A lot of, you know, build up to getting into that meeting. And so, I want to talk about once you actually get that meeting, what it looks like.

[ 00:35:04 ] They’re busy. They’ve got a lot going on. And so, are those meetings traditionally like five to ten minutes? And how do you capitalize? How do you capitalize on that time when it's, you know, all of this buildup and then you've got this opportunity, and you don't want to mess it up? Yeah. So, thanks for that because I'm going to the hospital next week. No, I think it's one if it's during like the working day and you're visiting a client or you have an opportunity where it's like a five-minute break, it's come prepared. Don't sell high. Be yourself. Give a card. Give a brochure. Highlight what separates you from other companies. So, for us, we specialize in long-term care insurance that provides safer discharges. We can implement additional service lines.

[ 00:35:45 ] We help them through the process of claims and claims management and really guide them through that process. But then we also have a hospital readmission program called DART. You know, it's a discharge admission reduction team. So, you know, I think it's one understanding who the case manager is. For me, I actually identify like what floor are they on. So, if they're an orthopedic case manager, I know their turnaround time is quick. Operation, pain management, monitoring, discharge. So, maybe I would talk more about like, hey, we could staff same day. We have a fall prevention program. We have this. We have that. Because they're really discharging while they're admitting post-op. But if I'm doing like an in-service, the first thing I do, two things I do. I thank them for their time.

[ 00:36:25 ] And then I say, how much time do I have? So, when they tell me 15 minutes, I set my alarm on my phone to 12. And I jump right into it. I give a very, very brief background about myself. Because a lot of it's fluff. It's all information. They know what you do. Right? I think it's important for them to know. They know who you are and what your purpose is. But I think what's more important is like, how are you going to help me today if I actually refer you? Right? So, do you have signature programs? What makes your caregivers quality? Why do you have a, you know, 1% readmission rate, Wayne? You know, tell me what it looks like.

[ 00:36:58 ] So, again, I'm literally just painting a picture of clients we've helped to experiences that we offer our clients and caregivers and what it looks like logistically. Hey, you call my office. This is how intake will work. You call my cell phone directly. This is who's going to show up. You know, these are updates you're going to get once a client on service. When our clients graduate our readmission program, we give them a certificate and it's going to be sent to you. Like, we funnel everything up to where it starts. So, you got to keep in mind that these case managers think about 50 things while you're talking. So, if they could pick up on one thing, what's that one thing you want them to be like, 'oh, okay.' Like, he or she gets it and I'm actually going to give you a shot.

[ 00:37:35 ] So, I think it's really just, you got to be really observant and understanding your audience. But also. Again, know your team. If I'm talking to case managers on the cardiac floor, I'm talking specifically how we're helping cardiac clients and patients. I was going to ask that. About how many case managers are there in a hospital? It varies. I mean, some are 15 and then some could be 40 plus. It depends on the system. I mean, one of my biggest referral sources with my prior home care agency was one of the largest hospitals in the state. So, and they changed floors, and they had floaters. But I really zeroed in. I zeroed in on a few different floors and then I focused on them.

[ 00:38:14 ] I didn't stop there because if it's a big hospital, if you're going to business from the ortho floor, you don't have to go to the spinal floor the next time. Stay in ortho, right? Like, learn how they discharge. Learn how they work. So, I was getting a lot of work from Ortho and Step Down ICU Cardiac. And I'm not a clinician, but I knew when I got a call from the cardiac department exactly how much time I had, the conditions they were in. I built partners because most of my Cardiac patients were diabetic. I had private school nursing partners. My nursing team was set up for success. We had caregivers coming in, being trained for Cardiac needs and Ortho needs. And I was able to track individual numbers and provide additional training.

[ 00:38:53 ] So, when the hospital knows you're doing all that on the back end and then you have the numbers, they don't need to refer anyone else. It almost came to a point where I was just care coordinating because they're like, call Wayne, call this company, you know, call Amada. And they just knew what our process is, just like we knew what their process is. So, I think it's really zeroing in on it. Yeah. And admitting to the people that are referring to you. Amazing. Amazing. You're going into the direction that I want to head, which is I imagine these case managers are really protective of their own contact information. Obviously, you are leaving a card, leaving a brochure so they know who you are. I imagine they kind of safeguard their own information.

[ 00:39:29 ] So, what does the ongoing follow-up look like, which is you were just kind of saying, like training, we get in, we come back week after week. Like, you have to stay so top of mind. And how do you? How do you do that over the long haul with someone this important? So, how do I stay in mind to them or how do I communicate back to them? Yeah. How do you stay top of mind for this case manager after that kind of like initial meeting? Well, the first thing I do is what's the best form of contact I can reach you at, right? Like, case managers walk around with like three phones in their pocket. So, you know, best form, they say email. Okay, it's email or call my work style.

[ 00:40:06 ] So, for me, when I was first marketing, it was my cell phone. But a lot of times, you know, I was in presentations, doing events, and that wasn't really successful as I, you know, was getting more business. So, you know, we created a lot of good internal intake processes, and this is what we do here now at Amada. So, it's setting very clear expectations with educating. Like, if you do have a referral, for the best way for your patient family to get the most immediate response, this is our process, right? I don't want any of my patients waiting an hour if I'm meeting with another family, like, that could happen. So, I think it's the education aspect in terms of, you know, telling that to the case management, giving them kind of cheat sheets, like rack cards, brochures, based on their form of contact, just kind of putting out feelers like, hey, you know, just saying hello, this is exactly how we can help, you know, how is everything on your end?

[ 00:40:59 ] And there's other ways to ask for the business. And then ultimately, it's just staying top of mind, you know, really communicating with them, whether you're doing newsletters. But every case manager, every hospital is different. So, it's really hard for me to answer that in specifics because I have people that text. I have people that I'm on email chains. But for me, I just ask, what's the best form of contact for me to either answer a referral for you or for me to update you regarding any of your patients you refer to us? Yeah, that's great. And I understand that, yeah, every person is different and has different preferences, which is curious if there were kind of trends there. But it sounds like there really is a mixed bag of texting.

[ 00:41:38 ] Texting, email, or visiting them in person; it really just is up to them and their preference, which is great. I know we're diving deep into hospitals, but I know this is important for you and something that you spend a lot of time doing. And I think it really is every home care owner's kind of dream to get into big hospital systems. And so, I appreciate you bearing with me as we dive in here. Anything else that you, before we kind of move on from hospitals, anything else that you want to share that we haven't talked about, about just like kind of tips and advice when it comes to referral marketing with big hospital systems? Not necessarily. I mean, the biggest thing I could say with hospital referring is like, you don't give up.

[ 00:42:20 ] Continue to be yourself. Continue to build internal processes and logistics because they're going to hammer you with questions. Like, these people are originals. They're OGs. They don't take crap from anything for anyone. So, like, it’s prepared. Don't be intimidated but be consistent. Because you're providing a service. A lot of other agencies are going to give up. As you're continuing to build relationships there, continue to build relationships in the community. Because you get that call for a referral of a client or a patient that's not a client of yours, come prepared. But if you do have one of your clients that go to the hospital, you know, provide a good customer service because that's your client.

[ 00:42:59 ] The family relies on you and an agency to transition them back home because most of our clients are the children, right? The client's the mom or dad. And the sister or brother. But most of the people setting up the service are the children. So, you're providing, again, hospitality. Make sure that family knows you're there for the right reason. Not to solicit and to build business. But also, build your partnerships because your client who goes to the hospital might need rehab. They might need home health. They might need hospice. They might need senior living. And also, never overstep a case manager. If he or she has three recommendations for rehab, you say, 'I have a partnership with them. I'm more than happy to help.' You just let me know.

[ 00:43:37 ] So, that's probably the biggest thing. Never overstep them and just go with the recommendations. But have partners and resources on the back end to support your clients or any new client that comes on service. Yeah. Really great advice. I would like to dive into maybe two or three other referral sources if that's okay. I know we kind of went into hospitals. I think a couple you mentioned. SNFs is another big one for you. Which ones do you want to go into? Can we kind of deep dive on for a few minutes? SNFs is fine. Does that seem like the best one? Yeah. Talk about your approach with SNFs. How do they obviously vary from hospital systems and what are kind of the initial strategy and tactics to get in there?

[ 00:44:16 ] I mean, the strategies can kind of differ. They're indifferent. I mean, one, it's, again, I'm a data geek and it's funny because I hated accounting and finance during school. But for me, it was like understanding the buildings, coming prepared. So, if I did meet someone on the first time, like I kind of had a good sense and feel of the building. Really, like to keep it kind of one-on-one is like do your data, do your research. If you are able to speak to anyone, schedule a tour, like learn, don't just start selling because it's not going to work. In a weird way, it's kind of like you're dating, you know, you come in, tons of info, brochures, cookies, coffee, it's like, whoa, you're right, just like you're on the first date, like, what are you doing?

[ 00:45:01 ] So, I think it's tour, get a good feel of what they offer, you know, do they have a specialized program in-house? Do they have a professional program? Do they specialize with pulmonary care? Do they have an ortho program? Get a feel for the patients, see them in rehab, kind of just see how they operate. Like, you have to understand all this stuff before you even talk about what you do. And as you're touring, hey, you might get lucky. That social worker's office door might be open and the person touring you might introduce you. So, come prepared, have a couple of business cards in your pocket. But don't give out too much because you might only have one shot.

[ 00:45:31 ] And then from there, I'm really what I'm really trying to do is you know during a tour seeing you know hey what activities do you offer You're your patients internally Do you co-market How can I support you with either of those And you know how often do you meet as a team Do you meet weekly I mean now it's like every day Every other week Monthly So I'm really trying to set up an in-service where I can provide education and for me it's an in-service is a presentation but it's more of a conversation So if I can get the department heads in one room before a breakfast or lunch or a utilization review meeting or a care play meeting

[ 00:46:04 ] whatever your markets referral sources call them I want a 10-15 minute opportunity to educate you on what we do, but I also want 10-15 minutes of what your pain points are, what your challenges are, what your referral process looks like, what your discharge process looks like, what hospitals do you work with, what home health people do you work with? Because whoever they tell me, I'm going right to them. So, I want it to be part of it. I get FOMO. I want to be part of it. So, you know, I think it's really cool. Get to know the building. Get to know them. Continue to be consistent. Continue to communicate. They give you any level. We're a business. Support them. You know, a lot of activity directors and departments, they may need support with budgets.

[ 00:46:43 ] Engage with the patients during events. Like, humble yourself and remind yourself that you're caring for people. And have an opportunity to set up an in-service. And honestly, after your in-service, ask for a shot. Ask for a trial. Give me 30 days because I can talk to talk, but I want to walk to walk, too. And continue to be consistent. Ask them, can I come here weekly? Can I come here biweekly? Do you want to do maybe an in-service? And update each other in terms of us referring each other and marketing and maybe data sharing every quarter. Create a process and become part of their process. So, again, it's every sniff is different, but that's my approach. I mean, I'm touring still within a year in. I'm learning, which is great.

[ 00:47:24 ] A lot of places now have specialized programs. So, if I have someone who is in the hospital and they have a hip replacement, I know exactly what sniff is for five-star rated that have ortho programs. So, that's going to better my client, better their experience. I'm doing in-services. I have systems in place where I go to certain sniffs. You know, I have different cadences. Where now I'm in skilled nursing facilities talking about, okay, we're going to do this event this quarter. You refer to us two clients. We refer to five. We have a 1% readmission rate. Wayne's going to do, you know, the lunch and learn or the candy station for our patients. We're going to do this together. We're going to do an Alzheimer's walk-day. I have a seat now.

[ 00:48:05 ] Now, at sometimes these meetings, obviously, before they talk about patients because of privacy. But it's really, it's a rewarding feeling, not just to get business, but when they think of you for multiple things outside of just home care. And that's really what you want to create yourself and how you're going to differentiate yourself from the competition. Especially when they give you a literal seat at the table is, you know, means you're doing your job, which is amazing. You mentioned as part of that in-service, you typically ask them what their key challenges are. I'm curious. You've talked to and worked with a lot of SNFs. What is the top, you know, two to three challenges that they immediately state out of the gate?

[ 00:48:42 ] The most trending one is when I get a referral, I have no clue what happens to them after. I'm not kidding you. I've asked my first six months of doing this. I asked every social worker, what do I do different? Because I'm going to pull my hair out. And they literally said, I wrote this down. I went to social workers who were doing this for a long time. Like I wanted to work with the toughest people because I knew if I had to be corrected, or reprimanded, at least they were teaching me something. But I knew if I could really get their blessing, I would be just fine. And they all said to me, when I get a referral, I have no clue what happens. And then obviously its readmissions, people fall.

[ 00:49:20 ] We have, you know, a few patients that are meeting their therapy goals. We have more people going home on more medication or they're required to have more medical equipment. One of the biggest things in New Jersey for me is the length of stay. We got a patient, but then, you know, they're only here for maybe two weeks versus your traditional 21 to 30 days. So, for me, now I'm thinking outside the box, okay, if you're telling me more of your admissions, your patients are spending less time here, maybe due to, you know, insurance, or they're not engaging so much in therapy, how do I help you, right? So, I would say two to three is communication. There's always a lack of that. There's a lot more of the acuity.

[ 00:50:03 ] The care level of the patients is much higher. It's much greater than ever. And then it's also the case as they're admitting it, they're discharging at the same time. So, the expectations, the length of stay, I guess more or less the expectations are much greater for them because obviously there's a demand, like they're being funneled patients from doctors and hospitals and other providers. So that is literally just like the last few things that I've been told the last month. And it changed. Yeah, I want to tap into that first one, which is just the communication around a referral is given and then what. That seems so obvious and straightforward. But how do you mitigate that? Is it an email that spells out the plan of care or is it a visit every time a referral is given?

[ 00:50:49 ] Like what does that process look like? And I also want to put in here, it's really common for people to come and go from these offices. So maybe you get all this stood up with, you know, X person and then in six months they're gone, and you have to reset it up. So, I think there's just a lot of turnover in health care and that makes your job especially challenging. So how do you, like what's your process to communicate to them what happens when that referral is given? Emails. Emails first. If it's not documented, it never happened. Plus, I like paper trails. So, emails. I mean, my biggest thing, and I'll go rewind a little bit, is as I'm working within the skilled nurse facilities, my job is what I call, my job is to blanket the account.

[ 00:51:31 ] You know, everyone goes to this. Social worker, everyone goes to the discharge planner. There's nothing wrong with it. They are facilitating a discharge, but I'm talking to everybody. I mean, I talk to dietary managers, maintenance directors, because if turnover happens, you want those relationships to help you with introductions to the new people coming in. So, for me, it's emails. You know, this is the plan of care. This is how our meeting went because they're documenting that too, right? They're putting a plan of care in place because then that plan of care might go to a hospice provider. It might go to a home health provider. They might kick that update back to a physician. Like, I want my company's name and plan of care and us on that documentation because that's going to create organic word of mouth.

[ 00:52:12 ] Like, who is this company continuing to get referred and updating me like this and providing good outcomes and a good service? Like, who are they? Like, you will get that. So, for me, it's emails. If I have a direct relationship with someone who referred, I'll be like, 'Hey, I sent an email. I'll text them. It does vary. But I come in. We come in in person with updates. So, for me to maintain a relationship back to question number one or two, whatever it was, is, you know, I'm coming in with success stories. I'm even sometimes coming in with service failures. Like, no one's perfect, but this is what we're doing to re-implement a process. This is what we're doing to change a process.

[ 00:52:46 ] Hey, the client you referred me six months ago, she's now getting her hair done twice a month and is active. And, you know, maybe six months ago, she wasn't even walking. So, like, they want to hear that. And I like doing it too because it's a feel-good feeling. But that's a nice way of me asking questions. I'm painting pictures on clients that have on service and clients that have been referred to me because they can sit in during one of the meetings and think of the same thing as that client that you have in service. So, it starts with an email at first. You know, you want to blanket the account. You want to make sure that every department leader is on that email because everyone has a different role.

[ 00:53:21 ] You want to, you know, maybe say to maybe you have a good relationship with, like, the social worker, director of rehab. Like, hey, I sent an email. Everything went great. Let me know if you and the team have any questions. And then I'm coming in during if it's a weekly visit, biweekly visit, monthly visit. I have a purpose and a goal. But more importantly, I have a direct purpose of me going there. You know, there's always going to be small talk. Like, yeah, my weekend was good. How are the kids? All that stuff. But it's more like, hey, this is, you know, Mrs. Jones is doing great. Just wanted to let you know. She's awesome. She's been on service three months. She's had the same caregiver.

[ 00:53:51 ] You know, she's, we're working with the home health you refer. We're working with X, Y, and Z. Because now they're thinking, okay, you work with the home health. So, when I refer home health, I'm going to think about you. Vice versa. And I actually have two clients. Just like Mrs. Jones from three months ago. Here's a face sheet. Go call the family. So that's actually my bread and butter. So, I think it's just consistency, communication, and being human about it. And documenting everything. Yes. To kind of close out SNFs, any other kind of last-like tips and or pitfalls for people to be aware of when it comes to working with SNFs? Just be consistent. I say it so much, but it's crazy how simple it sounds. But it was often how it's just.

[ 00:54:33 ] It's not done. Continue to build partners. Ask questions. Get to know every single thing about them. And don't be afraid to ask. Ask them because they were new once. They've been through this. They deal with so many vendors. Just ask questions. And don't be afraid to admit like you might not know what's going on. Or if you had a service failure, own to it. Be accountable. And ask them, how can I do better? I had a referral source tell me about a month ago. I'm not going to tell you how to run your business. I said, 'I'm going to be honest with you.' Can you please tell me how? So, she's kind of like the cool aunt. She's been doing this for 40 years. She's a nurse.

[ 00:55:11 ] But she'll tell you exactly what you need to do better. And I said, listen, seriously, like, what could we have done better? And I took that information. I shared it with the team. And we got a couple more clients. And we're doing exactly what we could have done better, much better. So, I appreciate the transparency. And she felt comfortable saying that to me. Because I was comfortable asking her questions. And taking the shaft of criticism very well. So just be consistent. Ask questions. Get to know them before you tell them about you. And you'll be completely fine. Yeah, I love that example. She asks, you know, or she says, don't, you know, I'm not going to tell you how to run your business.

[ 00:55:46 ] But you're like, well, actually, that's exactly what I want to know is what you're expecting from me. You've been a nurse for 40 years. Can you tell me more? Yeah. So, we've gone through hospitals. We've gone through SNFs. Let's pick one more. If you've got time, let's, I just want to keep talking to you. Let's get, let's get one more. One more that is. You've seen a lot of success with, or we could also do one more. That's like kind of an outlier one that you've one source that you've maybe been surprised by that is less common. Which one do you want to tackle? I don't want to defer to you. I mean, I worked with a lot of, you know, senior living, assisted living communities.

[ 00:56:21 ] Let's go, let's go with that because yeah, let's go with that. Sure. Yeah. Let's, let's start there. How do they differ from the other two that we've talked to, whether that's personnel or initiatives? You know, what, what kind of sets them apart and how do you approach them because of that? I mean, well, there's a lot of communities here in New Jersey and there's a lot of communities everywhere and they're all great, but I think it's one understands, you know, are they a social model? Are they a care model? Are they both? Again, same concept with skilled nursing facilities tour. They're completely different. They provide different tiers of care. They have lots of social engagement activities involved. They have rehab. They have outings. Every community is really, really, really different.

[ 00:57:04 ] So again, it's the one-on-one, schedule a tour, set up an in-service, get the department heads, you know, in together, identify their pain points, their challenges, but, you know, it's assisted living. So, you know, they don't, some don't need care around the clock. Some need very minimal and some just get maybe some, a few hours a week, maybe even more like medication management. For me, I think the, the, the goal and I guess the approach is, you know, what do they see on a day-to-day basis when it comes to even like the care they offer, right? So assisted living is summer, like higher in demand, like get to sales and fill the apartments, but they kind of, they're working a lot with the same partners you're working with, you know, hospitals and skilled nurse facilities, but they do with a lot of clients in homes.

[ 00:57:49 ] So I always talk about, you know, if anyone needs help at home prior to moving in, you know, we could be a resource for them to kind of transition them into a new home setting because it is a new home setting for these seniors, aging adults. So, we can, we provide the care if someone's like, you know, has a lot of falls? Is there a shorter staff staffing ratio? You know, at night, do they need more overnight care? Can someone, can an actual resident of their age in place? Is there a whole who lives here? Do they provide hospice? So, they can have a lot of resources in-house and they also offer a lot of resources in-house. So, I think really, it's identifying one, who they work with and then two, what are their pain points?

[ 00:58:29 ] Because if they're more of like a social model, then, you know, how can I offer support on a more care model? If they're more of a care model, how can I be a supplement of their care, but also how can I incorporate more of a social model for them? So that would be my answer. Yeah. I think that's really, really good. And I think applicable to every source is figuring out, you know, like what their goals, what their initiatives are, what their business model is and what they're trying to achieve. And then finding the way to supplement that and insert yourself. Because like you said, every assisted living, every, you know, skilled nursing facility, they're all very different. They're run differently by different people with different goals, and you have to figure out where you fit in and where you supplement.

[ 00:59:11 ] So I think, I think that's great. Can I ask you just a couple like off the cuff questions here? They're not on the script. Would you say split your time out in the field versus in the office? How much time are you spending out amongst these people? As an owner, as I was marketing. Let's do both if you're okay. Yeah, no. So as an owner, it changes. I mean, I follow a very strict sales activity system and I hold myself accountable. So, you know, last month I was 80% productive with my activity. It's not a hundred, so it's not a hundred percent, but it was an increase from the previous month. So, I would say about 65 to 70% of my time as an owner is out in the field.

[ 00:59:56 ] The rest is in-house supporting my team. And then when I was doing just home care, it was about 90 to 95% out in the field. And then the other five to 10% difference was, you know, we had team meetings like monthly, quarterly, annual meetings, or just popping in, giving support to my staffing, nursing team, HR, like everyone, saying 'Hey, great week this week' or 'great month', you know, bringing them some coffee. That's who I'll bring coffee and snacks to is my team that, you know, has put me in a position to be successful because, you know, over time when you're doing sales, you, you don't, you don't sell without the support behind you, and you need to really buy into that. But as an owner, it does change.

[ 01:00:38 ] And, you know, I am going; I'm in that point where, you know, a lot of good mentors of mine have been through that. So, I'm kind of taking, I can't mirror image of what they've done, but I've kind of now I'm feeling the, you know, the tension. I don't have enough time for this. I'm hitting, you know, anywhere between, you know, 800 to a thousand hours per week. And I'm kind of just stuck there. So, it's like, all right, what's my next move? And one of my previous mentors taught me, I need to be out there because if I'm in the office a lot, I get like crazy anxiety, but I also, if I'm in a field too much, then I get anxiety that my team isn't feeling supported by their, their owner and there, I never say owner, I'm their colleague.

[ 01:01:14 ] But right now I'm about 70 to 75%, but guess what? You're only going to get then 70% results. So, I'm going through a huge growing pain, a good pain. But that, yeah, about 70%. This is really good for people to hear. I appreciate you sharing that. Two other questions I want to ask. One is about technology. You've worked for several, several companies. And so, you've been exposed to, I'm assuming a variety of technology, a lot of large home care owners go through this battle of, you know, their, their agency management system. Well, Sky Access Care and Careswitch, you know, can do some of the sales tracking, but it typically can't do, you know, maybe everything that a full-fledged CRM like a Salesforce or HubSpot can do. What's your take on that?

[ 01:01:58 ] What have you used and what is your preference when it comes to actually documenting all the sales efforts, especially at scale? Yeah. So, all great companies. However, the type of activity and sales tracking that I do, I haven't figured it out yet. That's okay. That's a good answer. Yeah. So, you know, every time I feel that it's a good platform, it's great for others. But for me, I'm just, maybe I'm just a tough client. Like, I'm just not. It just doesn't fit in my system as much because we, our, our sales activity is very customized. It's not just gone there and document. It's like, okay, what's the frequency, what's working, what's not working and what's your activity, right? So, there's some referral sources I'm there every week, but that one week, I'll maybe bring a breakfast because they, that's what works.

[ 01:02:54 ] And that's, you know, what I need to do. So, I've done a lot of different platforms where we've entered activity and we pull three, three reports, but it just wasn't really kind of sticking for me. It was kind of tough to like to manage because all these reports I've created some tools internally that, you know, I can see things live, whether it's on my phone, where I could be like, oh, wow, I'm only 50% productive with this referral source at the click of a button. So, you know, I've created my own templates and, you know, Excel sheets. I'll admit it. There isn't, I haven't found anything yet. That's given me what I'm looking for. And if when I grow a marketing team.

[ 01:03:31 ] Not much yet for me to manage, I like to kind of pull up a tool, pull it up and talk about it to my team and say like, this is our productivity for the month. This is our activity. This is why we're not getting business. Here's the, here it is right in front of our face. Um, and of course we use one of the platforms you use for like scheduling, billing, and so forth, which is a great experience. It's just for me, I'm always trying to look more into the future. How can we advance things through tech? Because we got to grow and got to learn; technologies moving faster than ever. AI is moving faster than ever. We have to adapt to that, right. Our industry changes literally, like I think 10 minutes ago, it just changed.

[ 01:04:06 ] Right. So, um, I think it's always keeping on top of what's trending and how can it support us internally. And most importantly, like our caregivers, because, you know, technology can be overwhelming for them. Even clients, you know, if clients want to view the schedule or caregiver log, like it's teaching them how to use a computer or a phone. So, I think it's always up keeping it with, but in terms of tracking my sales, I have my own internal tools that have just been very successful for me. And you know, I keep learning, but I keep saying, man, if I had like a really smart IT friend, I would probably have the best platform of all time. But again, everything changes.

[ 01:04:43 ] So when everything goes good for one month, something else changes, like oh, I would love that to be customized this way. And then maybe I don't have patience to wait six months for a report to be generated. Well, good, good response. I think you're in the camp of a lot of other owners and operators. There's that. There's not. Really great. There's a lot of great sales tools for home care, but like you just mentioned, like there's a lot of inherent change in sales. And so it is tough to build a platform that satisfies all those needs, but I will, uh, self-serving comment that Care switches on their, on their way there to build some really good sales tools and functionality using AI for home care, because we know there's a big gap here that a lot of people are trying to fill and no, no judgment at all that you've turned to Excel.

[ 01:05:23 ] We know a lot of people do that and you have kind of your own way and process of doing things. And that's, that's totally fine. So that's why I wanted to ask you, um, one, one more question. You mentioned, um, that you guys are, are trying to hire another sales marketer. Um, obviously you've been hired as a sales and marketing professional. And so, I'm curious what it is you look for when you're hiring a sales and marketing professional for home care. What are the things that matter the most to you that you think would bring in a good hire for the role? Magic question. Right. Um, honestly. Yeah. I think it's the authenticity. Be yourself. Who I talk to you today better be the person that you talk with referral sources and with families, um, don't sugarcoat it.

[ 01:06:08 ] Don't fake it till you make it be real, be authentic, um, compassionate, driven, motivated. You're going to be told no. So, I'll have some thick skin, be able to take constructive criticism very well because we all mess up. I probably messed up five times today. I don't probably, um, just really just be a well-rounded person. Um, understand the purpose of the job. Yes. Sales it's demanding, but the culture that we have here and that I'm used to is it's going to take time and we're going to give you the tools and the resources and support to alleviate maybe being told no for three months. Um, I really just want someone just to be a human being. And I know that sounds like, I don't know if it's cliche and natural.

[ 01:06:54 ] I just, it's really hard to find really good people who do this. And that's why there's a lot of turnovers. That's why there's challenges. Um, that's why even with people with tons of relationships, they're on their fourth home care agency because it's like figuring out like, how do I do this? And like, I'm doing everything I'm told. I just can't get a referral, land a client to be on service. It really starts with, for me, just be yourself. And we've, we're interviewing really good people where I, I interview them like as if I'm a referral source or a client. Because if I know you're going to respond that way, you're going to be fine because I'm extremely confident that the tools, the resources, the strengths, the skills that I have, my team has, it's going to make you a really good professional and a really good person.

[ 01:07:39 ] But I also know that the strengths and skills that you have are going to make us even better as a company. You all learn from one another. So that's really, really important for me. And it's, I'd rather be patient to wait for that versus, oh my gosh, this person has a thousand relationships we got to hire. Sometimes that doesn't work. So, I don't know. I view it this way. If I run into a grocery store, be the same person during the interview, just be yourself. Yeah. I love that. I love that concept too, of interviewing them from the lens of an actual referral partner, you know, like put them in the seat of what they're going to be doing and interview them from that perspective.

[ 01:08:11 ] I also want to highlight someone took a chance on you, you know, what, eight or ten or twelve years ago. And so, you know, you came into this with hospitality background, restaurant background, which is applicable, but really someone kind of took a chance on you. And so, I imagine your apps to be willing to take a chance on someone else that is authentic and then kind of checks your boxes, whereas you can teach and train all of the home care knowledge. Yeah. That's for me, that's like the biggest thing I want to give back to this community in this industry is yes, you're right. A family took a chance on me, and it was hard training, right. An incredible company and they gave me the tools, but I had to buy in, like I had to buy in.

[ 01:08:52 ] I had to trust processes. And, you know, one of the things, you know, one of the things that I've learned over the years, you know, when you go through this is like, speak up a little bit, right? Like if you're thinking of a program, you see a trend, like speak your mind. And that's something I didn't do in the beginning. I was listening, thank goodness, because I never realized how much I knew. And then now like my business partners, so Bergen-Posay County, we're working for different companies. Now we're, I'm incorporating in their family and we're hiring people that were referral sources of ours and we're creating an incredible culture and providing an amazing, you know, service. And we're just constantly thinking. So yeah, people have taken chances on me.

[ 01:09:24 ] Like my whole life. And I don't know why. I think it's known I'm like so grateful for it. And for now, everyone who walks in, even to a caregiver, like, I just want to give you it all because the advice that I'm given from people that done business for 20 years doing this or five or six, like if I could take advice for someone doing this for 20 years, and I'm only like my eighth year in, like I better listen. So, I'm just trying to make people really good at what they do and learn from them and just be accountable and just continue to grow. Awesome. Wayne, I think I want to end here. I love that response so much that I think I want to end here.

[ 01:09:59 ] This has been such a fun conversation. You've come so prepared, and I think you've delivered so much value to the people listening to this. And I think just your comment about authenticity speaks to who you are. You know, just look at what you've just delivered. I think you are really just yourself and you've learned a lot and you're humble and you're learning and growing along the way. And I think that's a message for all owners and operators around the country listening to this. Is that we, even if you've been it for two years to 20 years to 40 years, like there's always something to learn. Home care really is changing every single day and we've got to be adaptable and humble and continue to learn and educate ourselves.

[ 01:10:35 ] And I think you really embody that, Wayne. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Well, we'll go ahead and wrap here. Thanks everyone for listening. Reach out to Wayne, connect with him on LinkedIn. He's a great person to have in your corner. Again, he's up in the New Jersey market, but like he shared today, he's always apt to share with other owners and operators. Although he is busy, connect with him, reach out to them. We've really, I think, just scratched the surface on some of your knowledge when it comes to referral marketing and sales. And I know we could probably talk for 12 hours about this topic, and we could deep dive on it, but I think we've given some really good insights today. So, thank you, Wayne. And thank you everyone for listening. We'll be back same day, same time next week. Awesome. Thank you so much.